Meanwhile…Over at The Daily Kos, the world’s largest and most powerful supposedly-Progressive blog, its founder and its front-page diarists would seem to be as out of touch with their own readership as the Democratic Party seems to be with their constituency, if the results from the following online poll running over there today (results as of 3:00pm PT today), offers any indication…
You’ll recall that previously, with no “extraordinary evidence” for the “extraordinary claim” that Hillary Clinton won the NH Primary (maybe she did, maybe she didn’t, 80% of the ballots were never counted or verified by anybody, so who knows?), Kos and his designated lead authors threatened readers with permanent banishment for discussing the serious concerns about “faith-based” elections, such as the one that took place last week in New Hampshire.
Updated for Kossacks in denial: Wrote Kos himself, in comments on this recent thread…
I’ll note that none of the diarists over there previously bashing The BRAD BLOG, by making claims, without evidence, about “claims” they claim we claimed, bothered to link up — or even answer to — our post disputing those claims with actual evidence to the contrary.
Looks like these guys would fit in very nicely with today’s Democratic Congress. Keep up the bad work, fellas. It’s only your democracy at stake.
(P.S. I’m in Oakland tonight for the screening of the more-aptly-named-than-ever new documentary UNCOUNTED: The New Math of American Elections. If I recall correctly, Daily Kos founder Markos Moulitsas resides near the Bay Area. I’d love to see him come out to the screening tonight at the Grand Lake Theater at 7pm. Details here. Ticket is on me. I’d be delighted to talk to him about his apparent lack of interest in transparent, verified elections after he takes a look at this film, and listens to the Q&A I’ll be a part of thereafter…if he happens to be in the ‘hood. It’s not too late to get it straight for ’08, Mr. Moulitsas! Especially since it looks like your readers already have.)
Good one, Brad!
Now Brad, why would he want to grant you any legitimacy? While you work your ” ” off for democracy, he works to be part of the ‘political class’.
Brad, I am glad I got to meet you in Sacramento, you are absolutely the real deal, it’s why I came to your blog in 2004. Very few seem to want to get this stuff. It’s hard to swallow it. It’s a horse tablet. No… “It’s four horse tablets soldered together with lead.”
This thing is big. It’s national security. It’s undermined nearly every government agency. The roots of this problem are astronomical, but the solutions are very simple if activated.
Outlaw electronic vote tabulation devices.
Maintain an unbroken chain of custody.
Create harsh penalties for tampering.
Roll back measures, propositions, and elected officials who are sworn in if the vote is later shown that they are not the winner.
Deactivate the electoral collage.
Only use electronics to print paper ballots for the disabled.
If all else fails because of too many breaches hold a complete re-vote.
If someone breaks their oath of office after being elected – drop, reject or nullify it.
Take away the monopoly of the corporate media.
Force equal time on all channels for all candidates.
Stop this anti-net neutrality nonsense.
Remove corporate financing of elections.
Put a halt to allowing demographics and databases to get into the wrong hands.
We don’t get news anymore. So now we need to MAKE IT.
I truly do not understand the resistance in otherwise very clear-thinking people to dismiss this issue, when they are utterly uninformed about it.
Even if you discard all the work that’s been done by people like Brad and Bev Harris and many, many others since 2004, all you have to do is read the one article by RFKJr in the June 2004 issue of Rolling Stone to understand that this issue is not blown out of perspective at all.
I’m just baffled by people like Kos.
Yep! They pretty much stink @ the daily kos. The sign of a good website: you keep going there. Big Dan doesn’t go there. I always said, that’s the sign of a good album: you keep playing it! It seems to me, like some kind of Democratic Party site.
I do believe that I read one story about Kos being involved with the CIA back in college but I can’t vouch for its accuracy. However, when Markos (and TPM. Apparently Atrios and Calpundit haven’t noticed this issue) bashes the election integrity movement I sometimes think its true. Who else would you want telling you that you should never verify the vote? Well, if you’re lucky, the so called “leader” of the “progressive” blogosphere…I mean, what good are all strategies about moving to the left or the right or crying on cue or praising Reagan if you don’t count the vote? I’m disappointed by all those popular kewl kids who think vote verification is right up there with regional landfill rights…
Philip Shropshire
http://www.threeriversonline.com
PS: One reason they bash the election integrity that I’ve gleaned back when I wasn’t banned from Kos is that People Iz stoopid: They won’t be enthusiastic about voting if they know the system is rigged. Talk about election fraud will depress turnout, while losing three consecutive presidential elections because you refused to verify and audit will keep everyone appropriately giddy and effusive about “Democracy.” Baaaad Markos Kewl Kid Groupthink here…
Kos is a poor dictatorship evidently. Like Bushie Amurka.
Hey, wait! Brad! Where did you get the money to buy Kos a movie ticket!?!
Now he will have to ban approximately 3500 people 🙂
Really though it would be nice if he did take Brad up on his offer to see “Uncounted” and then write another diary, retracting all his negative comments AND apologize.
“All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.” (Arthur Schopenhauer)
“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.”
When they have lost the argument this is always the knee jerk response markos’ Storm Troopers give. My response is, WHAT IS THE EXTRAORDINARY CLAIM WE ARE ACCUSED OF? That there MIGHT have been some irregularities with what happened in NH? Is that really such an extraordinary claim given what we know about the history of American elections? When Andy Kohut says he STILL has no explanation for why the polls in NH were so wrong? When anyone who is paying attention is well aware of the problems with Diebold? At this point you have to be a delusional idiot if you don’t think underhandedness is common in American elections. Joe Kennedy, Lyndon Johnson, Nixon, Bush…..I wonder if there has ever been a truly clean election in this country. So when we can routinely point to instances of underhandedness we’re talking about something that is in fact quite ORDINARY. The belief of markos and his band of suck ups, in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, that fraud is some aberration is in fact the extraordinary claim. So besides being a cliche used by morons who are trying to sound clever (akin to the ever popular “The lady doth protest too much”), the statement “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence” is just not applicable here- unless you’re a complete, head in the sand, kos worshipping, idiot.
Check this out! The editor of the Sun has just told a Lords committee that Rupert Murdoch phoned her at 1:30 am to make sure she knew that the New Hampshire polls were “wrong”.
Now, everybody knows Murdoch favors Clinton. So was he pushing the story for her? Did he have any insider knowledge of how the vote was going to go? Hmmmmn?
GANDHI !!!, Oh yeah, it’s in the bag for Princess Hillary alright
Phil #3 –
Was my honor to meet the infamous “Phil” from the BRAD BLOG! 🙂
Thanks for coming out on Tuesday, amigo. And looking forward to meeting more o’ my heros tonight in Oakland as well!
I am Anastasia, the daughter of Tsar Nicholas II. Now THAT is an example of a extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary evidence (especially since I’m a forty year old male).
But crookedness in a American election is somehow extraordinary? Nah, nothing extraordinary about that at all. Anyone with the slightest grasp of American history knows it’s in fact rather ordinary.
Reader #10 said:
Allow me to be even more conservative than that (as I frequently am, in relationship to readers here). The “extraordinary claim” we are accused of, is that 80% of the ballots were never counted by anybody.
Irregularities, though obviously they happened all over the place, didn’t even have anything to do with it when The BRAD BLOG originally reported the story, because we didn’t know of any, because they didn’t bother to count the damn ballots!
gandhi:
It would make a big difference which 1:30am we’re talking about here. Was she referring to her time [England], our time [New Hampshire] or even his time [Australia]?
Amurkan just us, the virus is spreading.
dailykos is totalitarian; I’m surprised they even allowed a poll about this.
DailyKos “I’m Part of the Vast Left-wing Conspiracy.” T-shirt
WTF. Conspiracy to have marshal law when you run out of oil? idiots.
ps-POLL THIS—->IMPEACHMENT
I think that it is an extraordinary claim that the primary elections in NH are essentially without problems.
Where is the extraordinary evidence to back up that claim?
Brad,
Even with irony, Kos should never be referred to as progressive. Please tell the truth, he’s a right wing/left gate keeper.
Listen, Markos is a neo-liberal. He “interviewed for a job with the CIA,” and zealously bans from his site — even today — anyone who seriously questions the Official Story of 9-11.
Markos is making a very nice living off of a website that aims to elect Democratic candidates. His cred with people who invite him to conferences and talk shows requires him to appear “reasonable,” which is to say acceptably in tune with the powers that be.
If our elections are not just a little crooked here and there, but thanks to computerization, media bias and the stupor of most of the American people are now rigged to the point that effective control of political life can be maintained by the elites, while maintaining an illusion of genuine democracy, then according to James Madison we are reduced to “slavery.”
If the elections are more or less thoroughly rigged, then our continuing participation in them is suspect and indeed, most of our quotidian pursuits like pursuing advanced degrees, SUVs, and career advancement (and blogging at dKos about gay marriage and whether Hillary’s health plan is better than Obama’s) are suspect, too.
A widespread belief that voting has become useless to effect appreciable change would deprive Kos of his bread-and-butter. He might have to (gasp) practice law (which he has never done, despite his law degree from Boston University).
Maybe Kos is a phony-ass agent of the dark forces, actively engaged in trying to keep the people good and fooled about politics.
Maybe he’s just a well-off snot who has a good thing going, and wants to keep it going, without too much actual “reality” infecting his supposedly “reality-based community.”
I don’t know if it matters which he is. Any notion that our corporatist masters would not do such nasty things is insanely delusional, however comforting to the indolent and the weak-minded.
The next time someone confuses “marshal law” with “martial law” I’m going to bite their kneecaps.
Agent 99, I’m assuming the “1:30 am” was London time, which would be – what?
Assuming New Hampshire is on New York time (?) I think there’s a 7 hour difference, which would make it 6:30 pm?
Were results already coming through by then? I’m in frikkin’ Australia so dont ask me!
you know what i meant. Yes, I’m a poor speller, I
noknow. It’s not like I’m president or somethin’.gandhi: Yuh, she probably meant her time… which would make it before the polls even closed… I think, but the statement can be blunted by merely stating that she meant his time in the United States, or his time if he was at home in Australia… which obliterates the notion that he had inside knowledge about how the result was going to shake out…. I think England is eight hours ahead of New Hampshire, so it would have been 4:30pm… really too early to be saying the polls were wrong….
Hey Brad, sorry to leave you out of the AMERICAN HERO stuff. You gotta know, your right up there too!
Hey Zap, I’m probably sorry about that too. Thanks.
Brad is exactly right regarding the leadership of the Democratic Party not respecting the grassroots of the party especially in Florida.
Look at how the Florida Democratic Party’s leaders treat an anti-war Democratic Congressional candidate who took action to uncover election fraud. First, they invite you to be a delegate to the annual convention, then they send a thug to attack you. Hard to believe? See, http://video.google.com/videopl...64543286144839
Agent 99:
I checked at the World Clock website for the 7 hour difference, so I assume 6:30 pm is right.
Can anyone else confirm/deny that early pro-Clinton results were coming through locally by then? Rupert lives in NYC, and I doubt he would expose himself (assuming he knew about vote-rigging, if there was any…) for no good reason other than upping sales on the morning’s paper in London! Would he?
Hmmm…if there were a CIA psy-op to limit debate among progressives, wouldn’t it be a lot like dailykos? It’s founder, Markos Moulitsas, even admitted to having worked at the CIA and been considered for clandestine services. What do you think?
Get this. That front page post with poll about the N.H. recount on Daily Kos has apparently been deleted (censored). I am so disappointed in Kos.
i’ve followed kos for years and it has become less of a discussion site and more of a true believer site. No one talks anymore they just flame every non popular idea. I guess that is the way these sites will go in the future.
Hey! First post, and I admit to not knowing the relationship between BradBlog and DailyKos. I’ve been at DailyKos for years, and I admittedly looked at the recount as a less important topic than others. I’m utterly opposed to using Diebold – don’t trust them in the slightest. But I found it difficult to believe that an odd outcome from the New Hampshire primaries would be worth the trouble of throwing the results. With that personal aside aside…
I hope you guys will realize that the poll shows that we do NOT fall lock step with Marcos. It is NOT a dictatorship. Yes, as someone brought up, we don’t talk about 9/11 conspiracies – I’ve read about that elsewhere, and for better or worse, I don’t accept most of the conclusions drawn from those ideas. Right or wrong, we all agree that what was made of 9/11 by the Repubs is disgusting. Democratic involvement is still being uncovered – and I’m certainly not above accepting information that contradicts my views that Bush had no clue. His ignorance led to 9/11 being carried out, but I don’t believe he was some sort of active participant.
I hope that the left side of the Democratic Party can pull together and find it’s way to righting the United States. I’ll look forward to reading more info here on BradBlog in the future. But I hope that you all will find a way to stop looking at ALL of us “Kossacks” as some sort of Borg – truly, Marcos could only WISH to lead us in ANY particular direction on ANY particular issue. It’s kinda ugly over there right now – not “Borg”-like in the slightest.
Peace – mike
Jon
Not if I can help it!
Brad, thanks for the updates. Nobody should be hassled for asking the big important and gutsy questions about voting systems or 9/11.
@RNinNC first of all try and get his name right if you “have been there for years” and secondly you obviously haven’t been around that long at dkos to realize what a fascist lockstep dictatorial menace that site is when it comes to election ANYTHING other than campaigning and donations.
I hope when Richard Hayes Phillips book comes out then Hunter, and kos and all those pro-election-theft “get-over-it” a-holes can go cheney themselves.
“Markos” – so I’m trying to carefully word a response and I screw up his name. Looks great on me.
If dKos was so fascist and lockstep, then I’d have been out on my rear long ago. It’s easy to generalize if you want, but dKos is pretty ugly with dissension right now over the primaries. I understand that campaigning, donations, and the electing of Democrats that go with those ARE the focus of dKos. It says so up front. But me and everyone else there gets to decide if and where our dollars go.
There are other sites that focus on 9/11 and the past two stolen Presidential Elections. DailyKos can’t be everything to everyone. I’m perfectly capable of seeking out that info elsewhere, and if Kos wants to keep it off his site, that is his prerogative. Again, he says so up front. I don’t understand the apparent animosity between these two Democratic blogs.
RNinNC
While it’s certainly true that most of the people here are leaning into the liberal end of the political spectrum, we staunchly maintain the position that this is not a partisan issue. That might be a crucial distinction right there. It’s been my observation that Kos has been weirdly obtuse about it all along, and Kossacks have expressed worries that they would be banned for talking about it for a few years. It may be that you can function inside an atmosphere where you have to conform to certain expectations in order to be welcome, but a lot of us can’t. Some us even react with violent emotion to that sort of thing.
Kos maybe just doesn’t like the cut of Brad’s jib, but it seems to me this attitude interferes with open discussion of a crucial-to-America matter. Some middle ground should be found. Brad still tries to keep the lines of communication open and friendly, despite really raunchy treatment over there.
Seems to me that banning from your site and/or derogating so vehemently those who want election integrity is outright un-American. Same goes for those who want the truth about 9/11, actually. What in the world makes so many feel so comfortable about making INTEGRITY and TRUTH a bannable offense? I just keep going back to the feeling of someone having spiked my coffee with LSD. It’s THAT bizarre to me.
Excellent post. The sooner the myth about “liberal” Markos and his FP syncophants is destroyed the better.
Markos is a genuine ignorant. And arrogant when he’s ignorant, like Bush. He’s typically wrong in his predictions and his offf the cuff stupidity has been well documented. He has anger issues, like a few infantile bloogers, ands a sports-geek bully, he relishes in turning people on his own site against each other. Great way to build “people power”!
After 8 years of chicanery by Team Bush, for anybody on DK to claim “conspiracy theory” towards rigged voting is either a Kos groupie or as I suspect of Markos, inwardly quite Republican.
The comments on your article over there are classic examples ofthe DK groupthink at work: “Nobody was banned!” “This piece is factually untrue!” “Daddy Kos, Daddy Kos, help us!”
I doubt Kos will show up at your event unless it was a Chevron fund-raiser or rally for Arnold.
KOS = CIA. You aren’t mistaken and the articles did exist as well as several related ones. I read them too.
Stopped visiting that garbage “Progressive” blog long ago.
Agent 99 –
Thanks for the response. I understand how angering it can be when Markos or the other FP’ers over there make blanket accusations of “conspiracy theory”. But he DOES state quite clearly that that is his policy on THOSE subjects. The 9/11 theories have been discussed quite thoroughly, but until we get new people into office – especially at the Executive level – there’s just not going to be enough SOLID info to fully investigate. I’m not making a BLANKET statement that ALL 9/11 theories are “wrong”, just that I don’t think much more can be said at this time that’s new, relevant, and objective.
As for stolen elections – you can see by the dKos poll that most of us “Kos Kids” didn’t agree with his dismissal of the topic. But it’s JUST his opinion. He doesn’t sit like a god over there – I don’t even tend to look at him as any more or less than alot of the random diarists I’ve come to appreciate since I got there in ’04. It isn’t a partisan issue so much, but Repubs appear to be abusing the system quite a bit more than their Democratic counterparts. And you won’t see many right wingers calling for an end to Diebold. BradBlog and dKos are looking for the same ending to Diebold!
Finally, dKos can be a great way to find links into other “dimensions” of the blogosphere – which is how I came across BradBlog to begin with!
#30 Ex. CIA…ex. republican ….dismisses election fraud =operative. All the liberals who love him attest to how good they are at what they do. How about the protester in Canada who was found to be a local cop? What is not mentioned is Firedoglake and Crooks and liars who never post election fraud info. Wayne Madsen Report … opposite. He reports the real news has been on Air America with RFKJr. and any quote by him is usually preceeded on the blogs with I don’t believe this guy but…same thing.bradblog is the best.
The best explanation is that Markos is working covertly for the CIA.
Here is 4:30 of evidence – Markos talking about interviewing with the CIA and what a liberal organization it is! Joking about the CIA killing labor leaders. I kid you not. Have a listen here:
http://www.911podcasts.com/file...A_20060708.mov
No wonder he is gate-keeping 9/11 truth and election fraud.
It does not come as a surprise to me that what people are actually saying is very contrasting to what is said on the news/most of the web. The individuals who work in media are protecting their own short-sighted agendas/interests, without understanding the long term consequences of their actions. Sites like the Kos put up enough of a contrasting viewpoint that it gives people the idea that they have a choice, when in actuality, all three Dem candidates are the same. (They all, to a certain degree, have corporate interests backing.) The point is to keep the real message from getting to the masses. The time for complaining is over people…. We need some inovative ideas… Transparancy in elections is of the utmost importance. (Very apparent after the NH debacle…) I don’t know how it can be done. Maybe people could use a camera phone to record their vote, and send it to an independant website for verfication? Maybe there would be enough of a discrepancy to force a recount???? I’m not sure what the answer is, but I know we need ideas, and quickly….
RNinNC said:
Agreed. And I would defend his right to do so until the end. (I have, and will continue to defend him and dKos against outrageous and inappropriate attacks, such as those by O’Reilly, etc.)
That said, his censorship of the most important issues of our day, such as democracy, has been extraordinarily damaging to the very core of this country. The environment of fear and intimidation he fosters (regarding such discussion as “conspiracy theory” and bannable offenses), is incredibly stupid and ultimately self-destructive even to his own interests.
The BRAD BLOG is not a “Democratic” blog, while I appreciate that dKos may be. We are an American Progressive blog. Big difference. All of which is clearly underscored by this entire discussion, btw.
Of course he does. And that’s his right. He decides what goes on the front page to be seen, who gets to blog and who gets to be purged and banned etc.
I get that same right here. I try, however, to respect the opinions of even those I strongly disagree with on the most crucial issues. I realize he often does that as well, though largely on issues that don’t much matter: Like who the Dem nominee will be. That doesn’t much matter if the Dem nominee (or the Republican one) doesn’t run in a transparent election that we can all have confidence in.
If that’s what you think, then dKos has a funny way of showing it! Because they are doing as much right now to enable the continuance of Diebold-style elections as anyone.
We’d expect right wingers to be in denial and/or actively fighting for elections that they, not the people, can control.
We expect better of a supposedly-Progressive site like dKos. And if you don’t think his opinion matters, you ain’t paying attention.
Talk to some reporters, some other Progressive bloggers, and they will tell you what they’ve told me: “Hey, the most progressive/liberal guy in the world, Markos, doesn’t think there’s a problem with X election, so doesn’t that tell ya something?”
To the others here, please be careful with the Markos=CIA insinuation, unless you have some form of evidence for it. I see no reason to believe he’s purposely trying to muck up Progressive advocacy, it seems to me instead, that he’s simply and wholly in denial — most likely, because he hasn’t bothered to actually learn what the hell is going on here, and has relied, instead, on uninformed ninnies like his “DHinMI” and “DemFromCT” front-page pals.
Thanks for the response, Brad. I’m enjoying gaining an understanding of where your site is coming from AND going to. I think of dKos as a groundbreaking site that has finally grown too large to be TRULY on the cutting edge of the Progressive Movement. It came first, and led first, but burdened with the notoriety and size of the past few years it has slowed. Smaller, more nimble blogs such as your own are better able to LEAD the way on some issues, while dKos translates the forward motion into easier and more palatable presentations for the masses. Fair?
I also think you underestimate the power of the NON-Front Page Diaries. Sure, Kos can delete and ban people, but that’s usually not as frequent as it has been lately. I’ve seen some fairly horrible troll-type diaries NOT disappeared from that right-hand column. That’s where O’Reilly finds words to condemn us. Anyone can be heard, but of course that’s based on following a few VERY specific “rules”. Until a topic such as any specific 9/11 Theory can gain enough of an objective base in fact, it will not be covered on dKos. That’s where smaller blogs come into play.
I appreciate the difference between a “Democratic” and an “American Progressive” blog, but I do think that there is a LARGE overlap in goals. A synergistic relationship at some level would seem like a better set-up, but I’m admittedly too new to know if that’s a possibility.
Finally, you say that it doesn’t matter who turns out to be the Democratic nominee. Unless I’m misreading your meaning, I’m thinking that your coverage of the NH recount is more an exercise in showing that the machine counts are inaccurate than in deciding who actually won that Primary. Again, I’d hope you’d look at your poll above to see that most at dKos DO support the recount despite Kos himself. And that over the years, there’s been a STEADY demand for a paper trail on Diebold machines from both the Front Pagers and the rest of us “Kos Kids”.
Thanks again for this discussion. I’m gonna poke around to find out a bit more about makes your site tick.
RNinNC, I posted some evidence that Kos is most likely CIA above.
Ever been to a place where you were so comfortable with the people around you it made you sick?
That’s how I felt at dailykos. I couldn’t stay there. Crooks and liars was a bit better. I tend to rove around infowars and bradblog now.
I hope Olbermann can change the tone a bit, but somehow I think he’s also slightly suspicious. And Markos definitely is CIA. He said he went up the ladder to almost clandestine and then stopped there. Mkay? Is this like when they announced that there would be a program of false news stories and then the next day they said there wouldn’t be?
I read and listened to the post on Markos and the CIA. I’m going to have to stick with the idea that the information is inconclusive. Obviously there’s no way for me to personally PROVE such a charge one way or the other, so I’m going to leave it at that. BTW, what would it mean to you if he confessed that he WAS working for the CIA? Just genuinely curious why the possibility is so frightening to you all.
If Markos confessed that he worked for the CIA, it would prove that is what he appears to be. That is, a controlled opposition, managed dissent, gate-keeper holding us all back on the 2 most important issues of the day:
1) 9/11 truth
2) the need for honest elections
Markos being a CIA controlled asset does not scare me. It is worth knowing who he is working for and who he is not working for.
I’d prefer reading in my native language, because my knowledge of your languange is no so well. But it was interesting! Look for some my links:
You do know Markos is admittedly ex-CIA. I say “once CIA, always CIA”.