Guest blogged by Ernest A. Canning
“Where they burn books, at the end they also burn people.”- Heinrich Heine (1823)
“Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.” – George Santayana
Heine’s ominous warning came more than a century before the infamous May 10, 1933 Nazi book burning where Joseph Goebbels told the Berlin student book burners, “The era of extreme Jewish intellectualism is now at an end.”
It was the beginning of the end for millions who would be gassed and then shoved into the death camp ovens over the next twelve years.
Today, we find a group of whack right-wing Christians operating under the Orwellian-labeled Dove Outreach Center. The group, which openly proclaims “Islam is the Devil,” announced that they planned “to commemorate the anniversary of the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11, 2001 by burning Korans.”
Today, the Los Angeles Times reported that Gainesville officials denied the group “a bonfire permit.”
I’m reminded of Pete Seeger’s Where have all the flowers gone?: “When will they ever learn?”
Update: Despite the denial of the permit, the Dove Outreach Center has vowed to proceed with its plan to burn Korans. I suppose one could call it an act of uncivil disobedience.
Update 08/20/10: There have been a number of comments, here, and elsewhere, raising First Amendment concerns about the City of Gainesville’s decision to deny a bonfire permit. Deputy Chief Tim Hayes of the Gainesville Fire Dept., however, said that his department’s denial was not related to the content of the books but on a city ordinance which prohibits the burning of “newspaper, corrugated cardboard, container board or office paper, which are akin to books.”
No doubt, attendees from the Sarah Palin/Dr. Laura School of Law would regard it as an infringement of the Dove Outreach Center’s First Amendment rights, should a group of concerned citizens peacefully surround these book burners, whom Gainesville Mayor Craig Lowe describes as a “tiny fringe group and an embarrassment to our community,” holding up signs which quote Heine’s “Where they burn books, at the end they also burn people.”
Update 09/07/10: General David Petraeus has expressed his concern that the proposed Quran-burning “could endanger troops and it could endanger the overall effort in Afghanistan.”
What Petraeus fails to mention is that the swiftest way in which he and his boss, President Barack Obama, could insure the safety of American troops and ratchet down tensions between the people of the Middle East and those residing in the U.S. would be to immediately end our imperial occupations in Iraq and Afghanistan by way of a orderly but complete and total withdrawal of all U.S. military forces as well as all private mercenaries.
Just out of curiosity, how many of you here would share the same “outrage” over a bible burning session?
Hey Boris, I’ll satisfy your “curiosity” (yeah, right, you’re just curious and not trying to bait anyone, sure, I believe you Mr. Troll). Burning any book(s) is always an outrage, or at least it should be seen as such by anyone who has a brain and actually uses it.
So now why don’t you satisfy my “curiosity” and tell me how you feel about the proposed Qur’an burning. Come on, Mr. Troll (oops, sorry, I meant Boris) let us know how you feel about a group that claims to be of one religion burning the holy book of another religion.
Oh my what has the world come to. We all know there are many different types of extremist in every religon, so for you to say your having a bonfire disrespecting a religist believes. Just beware your an extremist yourself burning the quran just know they’re others like you in every religon.
no
re
nts.
I love how Seeger’s song ends in a cyclical manner.
flowers>young girls>soldiers>graveyards……..
“Where have all the graveyards gone?
Gone to flowers everyone.”
I would be less upset at burning bibles. The people behind 9/11 were not Muslim. They were American and Israeli. So, maybe toss a few Talmuds or Torahs or whatever next to the King James. Now THAT’s a Fire!
ok, i guess i should admit that was rhetorical hyperbole. Burning ANY book is pathetic.
That’s easy, Boris @#1. I’m outraged at the burning of ANY book. Period.
Burning any book is a pathetic and juvenile act of idiocy all by itself, but burning a religious text gets you double the repudiation of not one but two basic tenets of American liberty — tenets which are apparently conditional among bigots, the weak-minded, and the intellectually bankrupt.
Certainly, in my view, this group is hateful and burning Korans is hate speech. But aren’t we overlooking the First Amendment of the Constitution here? The denial of the permit seems at first blush to be directed at the content of the speech and not at some legitimate safety/environmental concern. No matter how offensive the speech (e.g. KKK parade or burning Korans, Bibles), don’t these nutters have the First Amendment right to do this? Our recourse is speech itself in the form of criticism or counter protest. We can win the battle of ideas against the haters without setting the dangerous precedent of cheering on governmental restrictions of speech we find offensive.
Boris asked @ 1:
Um, I would. So I’ll presume you are outraged about the idea of burning Korans as well, right, Boris? Just out of curiosity?
(And thanks for clearing that up, CamusRebel, cuz it was a pretty obnoxious, anti-Christian, anti-Jewish and anti-American comment until u did.)
you’re welcome brad. but just to be clear, I am quite certain about CIA/FBI/Mossad being behind 911. That was NOT rhetoric or hyperbole.
I agree w/Des that burning of religious texts is doubly wrong. That makes the Ganesvillian morons(redundant?) triply wrong since they are burning the wrong religious texts.
of course i mean they are blamming the wrong people for the attacks.
Imagine if the library at Alexandria was not burned. We would know all about Atlantis, and a bunch more stuff that may well flip our collective wigs.
Macswain @7
From what I read in the article…they were denied a permit for a bonfire. They weren’t asking permission to destroy Korans…they needed permission to have the bonfire.
Conflating the issue of burning books for free speech rights is…well ultra Orwellian. Hell it’s Alice down the rabbit hole stuff.
Isn’t the book (Koran) an instrument of free speech ? Wouldn’t burning said book be a hindrance to free speech ?
Since when is destroying speech (a book), an exercise in free speech ? If one doesn’t like a book then one shouldn’t read that book…not burn it.
I support the freedoms of everyone. Burning the Koran is an exercise of the right to free speech.
Detestable: YES!
Illegal: NO!
You don’t have the right to start a bonfire to burn anything in Gainesville without a permit.
No matter how you all attempt to twist this into something else.
Seems some are using this thread to mix a batch of hater-ade.
Blue Hawk, it really depends on why Gainesville denied the permit. If they are denying such permits to everyone or somehow the place of this proposed bonfire creates safety/environmental issues or some other legitimate, non-speech-based concern, then I have no problem with it.
If, on the other hand, the denial of the permit is based upon the speech involved, First Amendment issues are raised. I happen to agree with the US Supreme Court’s decisions in Texas v. Johnson and US v. Eichman that symbolic acts, like flag burning, are speech (both opinions were authored by one of our last liberal justices, Justice Brennan). Concededly, I believe in a broad First Amendment as do most progressives.
To conflate protecting the right of one to engage with offensive speech with support for the offensive speech itself is unfair and I would ask that you retract that suggestion.
Macswain
So to you. Burning a book is free speech ?
But the book itself isn’t a form of free speech ?
Do you even realize the absurdity of your position ?
Or…are you simply pulling our leg ?
Writing, publishing, selling and disseminating books are certainly forms of speech. What the end user does with that book is a property issue, including using the book to make some sort of symbolic or political statement. It is not a First Amendment violation for a private citizen to destroy any writing which they have legally come to own.
I’m not violating the First Amendment when I, a private citizen, shred documents, throw away mailers, delete email or throw away books I no longer intend to read.
Can a Holocaust survivor publicly burn a copy of Mein Kampf to express his/hatred for Nationalism without violating the First Amendment? Of course. Can the government round up all copies of Mein Kampf for a burning without violating the First Amendment? Of course not. It’s not a hard distinction to grasp.
Maybe for you it’s hard to grasp Macswain.
But for most of us it’s not. A book is speech. Burning a book is not an tactic of free speech. Book burnings are always acts of hate and repression.
An instrument of free speech would be writing a book to debunk the book you dislike.
Just like Jewish people built holocaust museums all over the country to demonstrate the results of Mein Kampf. That’s free speech.
Moderator!
Could you please correct my spelling of Mein Kampf.
much obliged.
This article sums the whole issue well…
Personally, I wouldn’t mind getting a little more heat from Glenn Becks books, or Limbaughs, or Malkin’s or Coulter’s or Rove’s or Bush’s or quite a few other peoples.
Religious documents, probably not so good of an idea, though.
I went to their website and was disappointed i couldn’t find any “Honk if you hate Islam” bumper stickers or “Holla if you hate Allah” T-shirts.
A famous Man of peace once said, “you will know them by their fruit”.
Not sure about you guys but i’m not feelin the love from this group.
In the name of christianity and islam many countries were conquered and tens of millions of people were murdered (at least) but why the hell would someone want to burn the ‘holy’ books of those ‘religions'(the bible and the quran) that’s really just a damn waste of paper. It’s far better to use the pages of those 2 ‘holy’ books as toilet paper.
They didn’t want to just burn “a Koran.” They wanted a permit to start a bonfire within city limits. I think the City of Gainesville was well within its right to refuse to issue a “bonfire permit.”
Also, I’m wondering how many of these pseudo-religious trolls at the Dove Outreach Center have “Support the Troops” bumper stickers?
Do they have any idea of what the likely reaction in places like Afghanistan and Iraq would be to such a despicable action, or the extent to which this provocation could endanger U.S. service personnel serving overseas?
To Boris @ 1:
The opening quote of my piece reads [emphasis added]:
The Bible, Koran, Torah and Karl Marx’s Das Kapital are all “books.”
What part of the word “books” are you having difficulty understanding?
Bible pages make good rolling paper. Many is the time I enjoyed a big fat bible spliff. I never tried rolling a Qu’ran joint though.
So yeah I’m into burning Bibles but only one page at a time.
I want to come over to hankydub’s house.
LOL Hankydub. They are kind of thin, aren’t they?
Hankydub, you seem to have given new meaning to the phrase, “it’s what’s on the pages that counts.”
Ernie said @ 25:
Well, meow! I hit the road for a couple of weeks and Ernie sure does get snarky while I’m gone! 🙂
Go get ’em, Ernie!! 🙂
Does that mean, Brad, that you’re going to change my title to “The BRAD BLOG’s ‘Snarky’ Senior Legal Analyst”?
Well, Ernie, if the snark fits…
Just want to clarify my response to Boris — burning ANY book is wrong on many levels, but it’s within your First Amendment rights to do so, regardless of the content of the book.
It’s amusing to me that…someone would claim free speech rights for the act of book burning.
Something really twisted about that.
It may not be illegal to publicly burn Korans or any other books, since it not a government mandated act…but it sure is unAmerican to do so…to claim first amendment rights to hinder another’s free exercise of their religion is twisted.
But we live in a twisted country now…insane.
BlueHawk said:
It’s not actually twisted at all. Well, maybe it’s twisted, but it’s not stupid 🙂
Using the First Amendment for objectionable things (burning Korans or Bibles or American Flags, fighting to allow KKK rallies, giving the finger to cops, etc.) is how we assure the 1st Amendment accomplishes its purpose.
It’s easy to protect unobjectionable speech. Protecting objectionable speech, however, such as those things listed above, is much more difficult, but what the 1st Amendment is there for.
If it’s not exercised for its intended purpose once in a while, it’s much easier for it to slip away as “not needed” or “not wanted” eventually.
Hope that makes sense (and isn’t seen as disagreeing with your general larger point.)
Brad…point taken…
But I never said the law or it’s interpretation was stupid…I said it was twisted and insane.
I have given the finger to cops, I’m fine with KKK rallies (legally that is), I’ve never felt partial to flag burning, but if someone wanted to burn a flag no objections from me…but any act of organized mass burning of a book(s) by claiming free speech rights just doesn’t register logically. I’m sure legally it’s allowed…but I’m also sure those same folks would cry holy hell if a group of muslim citizens organized a bible burning rally.
I stand by twisted and insane…while acknowledging that it’s legal.
@ Brad Friedman
Hey I know this is off topic but I’ve been on your site here quite a bit recently and I notice you are running ads for “Capella University.”
I wonder if you would STOP doing that ASAP. Capella and Univeristy of Phoenix (and other similar corporate “universities”) are scams perpetrated on people trying to get an education. When you were guest hosting Malloy’s program I called you up to warn Mike’s listeners about UoP…you may remember this.
I wrote an article on UoP at DailyCensored (affiliated with Project Censored)a while back, but all you need to do is google “Capella University scam” to see that Capella is no better. Since writing the article I have gotten some emails from former students at UoP detailing their mistreatment at the hands of these diploma mills, and it is very frustrating that I can’t do anything to help them. Well one thing I can do is to ask people with functional hearts and brains to STOP running these deceptive commercials on their blogs.
These are predatory institutions, not educational institutions.
http://dailycensored.com/2009/12/18/university-of-phoenix-settles-fraud-complaint-for-78-5-million/
Brad @35 wrote:
I concur. However, the fact that one has “objectionable speech” in mind should not be an excuse for demanding an “exception” to an ordinance that is not “content based.”
In this instance, the Gainesville FD simply refused to allow the objectionable intent — burning of Korans — to overcome an ordinance which precludes the burning of “books” irrespective of their content.
The denial of the bonfire permit did not violate the First Amendment rights of the Dove Outreach Center.
Ernie @ 38 wrote:
I went back to read your update, to get the specifics on that since, it seems to me, that an ordinance specifically banning the burning of books WOULD be unconstitutional — if the intent of the law was to keep people from burning books, simply because the town felt book burnings were objectionable.
But you write that the ordinance has to do with the burning of paper — “newspaper, corrugated cardboard, container board or office paper, which are akin to books” — in which case, presuming there is a legit reason to bar the burning of such things (for safety or health reasons, etc.) then that’s no prob. But if the ordinance is meant to keep people from burning books, specifically, then I’d have a problem with it, since I believe people should be able to burn any book they want, no matter how objectionable it might be.
Let’s just say that I don’t think the First Amendment gives anyone the right to burn down my house simply because they don’t like the opinions I express at The BRAD BLOG.
Likewise, I don’t think it would make much sense to argue that Massey Energy has a right to engage in mountain top removal as a “statement” of what they think about environmental protection.
The ordinance in question pertains to setting various substances on fire within city limits. It is a typical public safety ordinance.
Now, if you started making exceptions, allowing one group to burn Korans but denying another the right to burn Bibles, then you’d get into a First Amendment problem.
But the Gainesville FD appropriately avoided that problem by not carving out a Koran burning exception to the no burning of “newspaper, corrugated cardboard, container board or office paper,” which are akin to books.
Because the ordinance is “content neutral” it does not interfere with the First Amendment.
Destroying the property of others (your house, land leased from the government — which also causes pollution to your property, drinking water, etc.) is not the issue here, obviously.
If, however, they purchased their own Korans or Bibles or Torahs or American Flags, I’d have no problem with them (on a legal/Constitutional level) burning any of them as they saw fit.
If the ordinance in question — as you seem to suggest — is merely a public safety thing, having nothing to do with the burning of books specifically, then I’d concur with you that there is no First Amendment issue here.
If, on the other hand, they’d had an ordinance that specifically barred the burning of books (say, because they believe it would cause people to get mad about books being burned) then I *would* have an issue with that, even as I find the burning of books of any kind, as (Nazi-like) demonstration, to be repugnant on a personal level.
Hankydub @ 37:
For the record, I have control of some ads that run on The BRAD BLOG, but not of others. The ones you mention I haven’t actually even seen (different ads run depending on where you are in the country).
That said, short of ads that feature out-and-out deception and/or disinformation, we attempt not to censor ads at all. That is, when we can (as mentioned, some of the ad networks used here run ads that I can’t either yay or nay before they run). That goes for even ads we might strongly disagree with — example, politicians we’d never vote for and thoroughly oppose.
If those folks want to waste their money on ads on this site, where they are not likely to do much more than cost the advertisers money that goes into my pocket (the few cents that I might get), that’s generally fine with me.
Hope that general policy makes sense to ya. If not, of course, always happy to have your thoughts or anyone else’s on these matters, to take into consideration.
And, of course, if more than the tiniest handful of folks actually donated a few dollars every now and again, we might not even have to run ads at all! (hint, hint…) That said, paying the rent each month has become nearly impossible as is, so I’m loathe to remove ads unless absolutely necessary for the reasons stated above.
Hankydub, Brad is correct. If these brainwashed, right wing Christians want to burn the Korans that they purchased, they have a First Amendment right to do so. It is a symbolic act intended to make a statement, though not nearly as powerful as the Buddist monk who, in November 1963, set himself on fire in Vietnam to protest the corrupt South Vietnamese regime.
But, the right to make a statement does not trump a city’s right to enforce a public safety ordinance. And, if the city fines the Dove Outreach Center for violating their content-neutral ordinance, I am quite certain a court would not invalidate the fine on First Amendment grounds.
I lived in Florida for 9 years, anyone who knows anything at all knows the entire state becomes a tinderbox at times, and vast forest fires often close down parts of the interstate.
Open burning is therefore something the local firepeople take VERY seriously
Hey Brad, I appreciate your sincere response to my OT comment. I definitely have a bee in my bonnet about these so-called “colleges,” they piss me off enormously.
Just last week I got an email from a single mom in AZ who is trying to return to school but she just found out from her new college that UoP is holding her transcript hostage until she pays them $2,000 that she doesn’t owe them. If you were getting these kinds of emails from random people you’d be pissed too.
“And, of course, if more than the tiniest handful of folks actually donated a few dollars every now and again, we might not even have to run ads at all! (hint, hint…)”
I feel you my dude. I’m poor as…well lets just say I’m poor. I’m hoping to finish grad school quite soon and when the bucks roll in I will definitely throw you some coin. In the meantime I heard Ernie is ROLLING in it…big fancy lawyer. 🙂
Y’ all can burn as many Qurans as you want. That’s the whole point of having the true book of God is that it is the truth. It was never ever changed or altered like other religions’ books.
If you take all the Quran in the whole world and burn them or throw them in the ocean, and We put it all back together again it will be the same Quran no matter where in the world it gets rewritten.
Try doing that with whatever book you follow. Why would anyone follow a book that was changed, altered or amended by a human being?
This is not an argument; it is just a free eye opener.
Muslims will be feeding homeless people in the Gainesville area on that day. We will be giving out 50 Qurans for every 1 burned.
Islam means peace…
“Do you want to burn the Quran?â€
If you want to burn the Quran I invite you to read it first.
Then it is your choice to proceed; You will figure out that:
You will be burning Adam and Noah, Abraham and Issac, Jacob and Josef, David and Salomon, Moses and John….and all prophets and saints
You will be burning Jesus and his saint spirit ….
You will be burning Mary and her baby ….
You will be burning the Torah and the Bible ….
Go ahead
Burn the light to satisfy your darkness….
Burn the love to satisfy your hatred….
Burn the peace to satisfy your anger….
Burn the compassion to satisfy your cruelty….
Burn the knowledge to satisfy your ignorance….
Do all the above in your heart only….
Oh wait; would you still have a heart after the above?! Would you be Christian or Jewish, would you be even human?!
The Quran won’t be affected of what you would do, because the creator said about it:
“Surely We have revealed the Reminder and We will most surely be its guardian.†15-9
You would burn the papers of the Quran, but even by burning it, it will show light… to all man kind.
It will keep saying: “Their intention is to extinguish God’s Light with their mouths: But GOD will complete His Light, even though the Unbelievers may detest (it).â€61-9
And it will keep saying: “And the servants of the Beneficent God are they who walk on the earth in humbleness, and when the ignorant address them, they say: Peace!â€25-63
Peace….Peace….Peace….
Hassan Yaghi, Seattle, Wa
Aug 26, 2010
hassan.yaghi@gmail.com
Hassan Yaghi @47 wrote:
Magnificent, eloquent & profound — something that I will quote should I have to write a follow-up piece in the event these truly deluded wing-nuts proceed with their Quran burning on 9/11/10.
Thank you, Hassan for your well thought out comment and for your sincerity. Peace!
All religious books should be destroyed and forgotten because in reality its all nonsense. Think about religion in the human history, the crusades, terrorism, holocaust, priests raping children, and so on. All in which have a GREAT deal to do with religion. Someone PLEASE give me an example of greatness coming from religion, with factual evidence that it was religion that brought it about. Come on people, you don’t need to follow blind faith. There is no one “upstairs” listening to you talk to yourself. Have some self confidence cause your the only one that can help you or anyone else, “god” won’t do it.
I’m not a hater, just a realist.
we have the right to worship and if you think were doomed your doomed okay they’ve sent you a prophet as a guide…. now that he’s long gone they’ve sent you the quran and this is how you react to it? WALAHI on the day of judgement we shall see who will be crying….. so repent now and take your lord who created you and me back! (ALLAHU_AKBAR)
I live in Gainesville Florida and this “church” is led by a real whack job. We are standing against this Koran burning peacefully by putting together a petition to let the world know that we respect all religions. Please help us by signing our petition. Click to http://www.PleaseDontBurnTheKoran.com
This has nothing to do with Muslim or Islam. This bigot Right Wing Church is mad as hell because a Black Man is in their “White Houseâ€. They are trying to force Obama in making a comment so the Republicans can pounce on him and say he cares more about Islam and Quran than US Bill of Rights. That Jerry guy already admitted that G.W Bush is his idol. These Republicans don’t give hoot about our troops when it comes to winning at any price. It is something when you don’t care about the well being of this country but to cause harm to our soldiers for winning the election is shameful.
While I haven’t read every comment, I feel most of you are missing the point. In this particular case burning the Koran is tantamount to murder. People will be angry and their anger will turn towards us, Americans, soldiers, AID workers, Embassy personnel. Burning the Koran or any Holy book, be it the Bible, the Talmud or the Ramayana, is wrong. In fact, in my mind, burning any book is wrong and throw back to the dark ages. But at this moment in time, burning the Koran is not only wrong, it is very dangerous.
A Christian missionary in Saudi Arabia is not allowed to share his faith, but in America, we not only allow muslims to spread their religion, but we allow them to build a mosque near Ground Zero.
Most Americans honor their flag as much as muslims honor their holy book. Muslims can burn the American flag when they get angry, but we, Americans, get criticized when we get angry and want to burn the Koran. See your double standard!
Uh, no, Joel. Fail — on more levels than I have time (or interest) in detailing. But I’ll offer just one.
No “Most Americans” do not “honor their flag as much as muslims honor their holy book” unless you’re suggesting that “most Americans” regard the American flag as the word of God.
If you regard it as that, then I suggest you go back and take a look at your bible, which I’ll be respectful enough to not call for people to burn, specifically the part concerning false idols.
There is no double standard here that I’m aware of. Just idiocy. Which your comment seems to represent well. Congratulations.
It is freedom of speech and so is building a mosque blocks away from ground zero… if they can get a permit for the bonfire the best way to handle the situation in my opinion is to hold a peacefule religous tolerance rally next to the book burning site that has so many atendees it overshadows the book burning… this pastor is no better than the terrorists involved in 9/11 he is obviously filled with just as much hate as extremists in any religion and needs to be told that just as violence begets violence hate begets hate
Just curious most islamic countries bibles are illegal and regularly destroyed, as well there is not one christian or jewish studies department in any university in any moslem country. While I don’t think this is the best way to make people aware of the horrific nature of the koran,the best is probably reading it, not sure why you all are in such a huff about this and not saying anything about how islamic countries treat different religions?
Terry alleged:
Cite for those claims? Thanks in advance.
As to your comments about the “horrific nature” of their holy book, I’d agree that things like condoning human slavery and stoning women to death for committing adultery is indeed horrific…oh, wait…that’s your holy book…What was your point again?
Are we really going to listen to this nut case guy who have only 50 followers (and what he is doing) … don’t we have more important things like unemployment rate… china taking over whole united states economy…to worry about.
Co’mon America, wake up before we become China’s biaach
They burn our flag and its OK…..We cannot have churches in their country…..Why can’t we burn a damn book??????????
Does Terry Brown know his name is on the same page as all the other extremists that have little ability to understand that you do not judge a book by it’s cover. Will Terry Jones be willing to accept responsibility for the death of even one person let alone the possibility for thousands? Will someone just tell him just before he sets a match to the books that they have cleverly hidden a few bibles in the pile but they all have “Koran” book covers.
If he should succeed in this horrendous event he will be justifying the false beliefs that the Taliban and other extremists have.
I think that this idiot character “Terry Brown” is a taliban undercover. He knows exactly what he is doing. Burning the Koran is like blowing up the “Buddhas of Bamyan”.
We need to restore some sanity on 9/11, check out this event: http://bifocalpoint.blogspot.com/2010/09/911-freedom-rally-in-dc.html