In a long article from NEWSWEEK’s Daniel Klaidman today, it’s reported that U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder is weighing the appointment a special prosecutor to investigate Bush/Cheney-era torture policies, and may now be “on the verge” of finally doing so…
The detailed story explores the tensions between the White House and an independent AG — a tension that is ever present in any WH/DoJ relationship — and how Holder seems to be fighting to maintain that independence, while remaining in good stead with the White House where, it seems, Rahm Emmanuel may be the one calling the shots in Obama’s ill-considered (or, at least, politically-considered) “look forward not back” policy…
The report goes on to note that Holder began reviewing the former administration’s torture policies “in April,” and “became increasingly troubled” as he did.
To connect a dot or two here, that would be around the same time — April 24th of this year — when Holder told anti-torture protesters, off mic, after a Congressional hearing at which he testified, that they would “be proud of [their] country” in response to their demands for investigation and prosecution of those policies.
Though we noted what protester David Swanson had reported as a “promise” at the time, few others took any notice of what we’d regarded as a very positive, if quiet, sign that he had intended to do the right thing here…
Again from NEWSWEEK:
It was soon clear to Holder that he might have to launch an investigation to determine whether crimes were committed under the Bush administration and prosecutions warranted. The obstacles were obvious. For a new administration to reach back and investigate its predecessor is rare, if not unprecedented.
…
Holder couldn’t shake what he had learned in reports about the treatment of prisoners at the CIA’s “black sites.” If the public knew the details, he and his aides figured, there would be a groundswell of support for an independent probe. He raised with his staff the possibility of appointing a prosecutor. According to three sources familiar with the process, they discussed several potential choices and the criteria for such a sensitive investigation. Holder was looking for someone with “gravitas and grit,” according to one of these sources, all of whom declined to be named. At one point, an aide joked that Holder might need to clone Patrick Fitzgerald, the hard-charging, independent-minded U.S. attorney who had prosecuted Scooter Libby in the Plamegate affair. In the end, Holder asked for a list of 10 candidates, five from within the Justice Department and five from outside.
…
[I]n late June Holder asked an aide for a copy of the CIA inspector general’s thick classified report on interrogation abuses. He cleared his schedule and, over two days, holed up alone in his Justice Depart ment office, immersed himself in what Dick Cheney once referred to as “the dark side.” He read the report twice, the first time as a lawyer, looking for evidence and instances of transgressions that might call for prosecution. The second time, he started to absorb what he was reading at a more emotional level. He was “shocked and saddened,” he told a friend, by what government servants were alleged to have done in America’s name.
Let’s hope here that Holder does the right thing for the country, as opposed to the “right thing” for Emmanuel’s perception of what is best for the Obama administration.
It’s time to do the right thing, Mr. Holder. Torture is illegal. Period. It’s in violation of U.S. Law and in violation of international treaties signed by President Ronald Reagan, who called the practice “abhorrent” and agreed that our country is “required either to prosecute torturers who are found in its territory or to extradite them to other countries for prosecution.”
Torture is also a war crime, about which, just before the Iraq War, even George W. Bush himself said on video that such crimes “will be prosecuted, war criminals will be punished and it will be no defense to say, ‘I was just following orders.'”
The Rule of Law must be respected, no matter how high ranking the officials who determine to break it…and worse, break it in our name.
History is watching, Mr. Holder.
Is there where we start holding our breath?
nice catch – bet we don’t see any of the trolls that flooded the place last weekend falsely accusing people of slandering palin.
This one, not so much…
Yeah, history’s watching, but only chumps hold their breath.
Bring. It. On. I have been calling for these show trials since the democrats took control of congress in 07. I can hardly wait.
You hear that Mr. Holder…I’ve got my eye on you.
LOL
I’m letting you keep that one, SR, because it was a great joke. 😛
Come on, don’t be scared. Regardless of what happens here, the GOP will still hold first prize for the Greatest Show on Earth. Ken Starr “dusts off his Oscar” nightly…
reading the script!
Thanks 99…I knew it was a violation, but I couldn’t resist.
Comment #4….
Axey tips the right wingers hand…already calling the torture investigations/prosecutions of Bushies “show trials”
it *pays* to be proactive; doesn’t it Axey ?
Why am I not surprised….?
Because you have me figured out? You don’t think they will be show trials? That is the point of them. Read the article. The disappointment the AG felt when public sentiment didn’t swell in favor of prosecution even after the memos he fought hard to get released were released. I mean he actually celebrated at their release and sat back and waited only to be disappointed. I want the trials, show or not. I am not being snide when I say bring it on. I don’t think they will turn out the way the left imagines, anymore than they did for the right when they went after Clinton. But I’m willing to roll the dice in order to know for sure who knew what and when. I just hope Pelosi’s face doesn’t crack under the pressure.
Doesn’t anyone else feel ready to puke from the offense of an attorney general of the United States feeling he needs a public uproar to prosecute for war crimes? I mean, never mind that there is a huge public uproar for it that is being utterly ignored, just that one would come out and say shit like that is enough to make one puke with grief.
No?
Yes, for any crime that an AG feels should be prosecuted, war crime or not. It also causes a puke feeling that he feels the need to be interviewed for a long article on his feelings.
Comment #10…..geez Axey….
Comparing putting the POTUS on trial for lying about a sex act and the Bushies crimes against humanity, the Geneva convention and U.S. law
only that could come from a right winger…
you guys amaze me.
What Holder has reasserted is the independence of the AG’s office. The Attorney General of the United States is being returned to an impartial, independent unit of the Federal government…after 6-7 years of being the lap dog of the Bush administration under Alberto Gonzalez….
The AG’s office won’t be politically motivated and do “show trials”…they’ll investigate and prosecute violations of U.S. law.
To quote the article directly…
“[I]n late June Holder asked an aide for a copy of the CIA inspector general’s thick classified report on interrogation abuses. He cleared his schedule and, over two days, holed up alone in his Justice Depart ment office, immersed himself in what Dick Cheney once referred to as “the dark side.” He read the report twice, the first time as a lawyer, looking for evidence and instances of transgressions that might call for prosecution. The second time, he started to absorb what he was reading at a more emotional level. He was “shocked and saddened,” he told a friend, by what government servants were alleged to have done in America’s name.”
So Axey…all you get from that is “show trial” ?
Dream your right wing fantasies Axey…
I suspect you will be still be dreaming for any kind of trial by the end of Obama’s tenure. I see Holder explaining who prevented him from prosecuting “Bushies”. Of course, this will be proven one way or the other so I’ll come back for my beating if there is actually a case brought against anyone.
This article coming out now…and Leon Pannetta(CIA director) finally admitting that the CIA lied to congress about interrogation techniques among other things are not random occurences.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/07/08/panetta-acknowledged-cia_n_228321.html
To my political understanding…I understand Holder feeling he needs popular political backing (the people) to prosecute…Obama has already wimped out on pursuing this…It seems Holder feels as the top law enforcer in the Federal government he’s duty bound to prosecute; despite Obama’s squeamish actions. I for one say that Mr. Holder should hear from us so he’ll know that prosecutions is what the public wants.
He admitted that the CIA lied about interrogation techniques? I missed that.
As you said, as the top law enforcer in the Federal government he’s duty bound to prosecute. But who will he prosecute? Will you be satisfied if he only prosecutes some lowly agent that “… had gone far beyond what had been authorized in the legal opinions issued by the Justice Department”? Were you satisfied that Fitzgerald only got Libby on perjury charges? And that the actually person who leaked Plame’s name, Armitage, never saw the inside of a courtroom or the scorn he deserved? I know when the right began their witch hunt against the Clintons, they didn’t expect to end up with perjury charges about sex. I know the left was looking to see Cheney and Rove frog marched out of the WH. It’s the old be careful what you wish for that I was expressing earlier, not a comparison of Clinton’s show trial with the ones the AG is on the verge of.
Axey –
As is consistent with the feelings of most posters here on BB, if there are any Congressional Democrats who have been involved in any ordering of illegal acts, any cover-up of illegal acts, any ‘turning away from’ knowledge of illegal acts, I hope they are investigated and prosecuted to the fullest extent. I no more want Obama to think he can subvert the law than I did Bush.
Wanting to know the truth and wanting our government to obey our laws, this is not a partisan desire. Democrats are responsible for their own spinelessness in the face of the crimes of the Bush Administration, and I hope that a good number of them are challenged and replaced in the next election cycle…not with Republicans of course, but if it were up to me, it wouldn’t be with Democrats either. I’d prefer a good liberal independent mix.
I’d be in support of human cloning if we clone Bernie Sanders.
Comment #16….Axey…
Well then let’s get to prosecutin’ and see where those lead…
It’s a big difference trying to dodge prosecution when you’re not in power (Cheney-Plame)…
I bet there are CIA agents chomping at the bit to squeal up the food chain…that food chain ends in the previous administration’s WhiteHouse.
I’m sure you do, as long as they take Bush/Cheney down with them. But to be honest, I haven’t seen a whole lot of bi-partisanship on here from any poster, including me.
Comment #17…..Soul Rebel
Well said my friend…
I agree 100%
Well, I think that’s too strong a characterization there. He has mentioned it, and stated he’s leaning toward asserting it, while griping about not having the political cover that he actually has, so I would caution you to remember to separate what these people only say from what they actually do.
I make a point of this only because I’ve witnessed Democrats repeatedly coming out with these teases, much ballyhooed by the people out here panting for something like our country back, and bubkes has come of it every single time.
This NEWSWEEK piece is almost certainly as “independent” as Holder is going to get. Blood is dripping out of my ears from having to see the piece instead of the fucking prosecutor. So don’t take my ire as directed at you. It’s directed at our broken and corrupt government… at the lot of them.
Re: Axey #19
Actually, if the probe uncovers Democratic lawbreakers and doesn’t do likewise for Bush and Cheney (I find that prospect to be highly unlikely) I would take that over nothing. I’ll lean towards some justice rather than no justice. That doesn’t mean I won’t think that something has gone terribly wrong, but at this point we’ve been lied to so many times for so long, it almost doesn’t hurt any more.
Almost.
I’m surprised with Holder’s handling of the Siegelman case. That’s just not right! He drops the case against Stevens, and continues it against Siegelman. Can someone please explain that???
They might as well drop the whole fucking thing as it will just be one big redacted cover up anyway by trying to save some of the people involved.
The media has already spun it into the old “but they did it too” bullshit to divert from the real criminals.
Nothing will happen.
But Kucinich did smack down the pig from the Manhattan Institute the other day
Comment #21…Agent 99
Yours is probably the more reasonable expectation.
Despite my growing daily disappoitment with Obama, I’m still in the hopeful mode that he or someone in his administration will do the right thing.
Admittedly Obama sold me on his “change we can believe in”. So I’m giving this issue of torture prosecutions for the Bushies a “puncher’s chance”…although your assesment is very likely what the out come will look like…
But hey I can hope though; huh ?
Comment #24… Floridiot
That’s an utstanding video…
big dan, in Stevens, my impression is that Holder dismissed the case because the government was going to lose bad on appeal. That was an easy decision to make.
Floridiot:
Thanks for the video. That’s our Kucinich alright! The Manhattan Institute couldn’t find anybody less sickening to represent them?
The Newsweek article says that a torture investigation may hurt Obama’s domestic priorities, including health care.
Let it!
We all know that under the present system, health care is going nowhere. If heads start rolling on capitol hill, we may get something that resembles health care later. If we don’t prosecute these torture crimes, we don’t deserve health care; it just makes my generation look like we only care about ourselves and that isn’t true. A great many of us have wanted justice too, and worked very hard for it.
Just out today…
Cheney ordered the CIA to lie to congress…a crime…
*With Pannetta’s admission of CIA’s lying…
*Holder’s considering prosecuting article yesterday…
*And today the story coming out that Cheney ordered the CIA to lie…
This really sounds like a run up to full prosecutions….
http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=3906861&cl=14461070&ch=&src=news
Can’t recommend highly enough bookmarking Greenwald for this stuff….
Comment #30….Agent 99
I’ve read Greenwald’s article; it keeps me grounded.
I’m still *hoping* for major prosecutions (although it’s not likely).
By the way…I checked out your site….OUTSTANDING!!…
It’seriously one of the best blogs I’ve run across.
Oh, my word, kind of you to say so…. 🙂
99’s blog is living art! Very interesting and informative at the same time. How do you find the time?
Oh! Bless your heart, Larry.
I make the time! I try to make sure there is a place for people to go to get things I think are fundamentally important. I have lots of busy friends who only get snatches of not-enough information from the MSM, and I want them to have a place to find out something more like actuality. I also wanted it to be a way for them to check in with my life from far away. So it just sort of became what it is. Of course, now, there are a lot more people than just my old friends far away, and I try really hard to fill the place up with as much good information, fascinating lectures, and pretty things as I can.
It’s the kind of blog I’d like to visit if I were stuck in the hospital or somewhere with a lot of time on my hands.
Of course, I’m very strange…. 😛
If you want a good laugh…go to this blog…
http://animal-farm.us/obama/dirty-game-517/comment-page-1#comment-327
This guy foxwood posted his blog on another thread on bradblog…I go check it out and find he’s just a screwy braindead right wing fool. I posted several comments under the same handle that I use here (BlueHawk). I got banned…I wasn’t flaming, no course language; simply because my opinion differed from his…
I write this because foxwood isn’t looking for open honest debate…he posted his blog on bradblog to hate-bait those that differ from him and lure them to his site for his ignorant delusionals. He’s created his own echo chamber to parrot Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity…
I doubt that foxwood has had an original thought since kindergarten.
[I]n late June Holder asked an aide for a copy of the CIA inspector general’s thick classified report on interrogation abuses.
Is June Holder, Eric Holder’s wife?
Ha cha cha! I’ll be here all ze veek!
Holder already has the backing of the American people — and has for some time. It’s sad that this is only being seriously considered because Congress found out that it had been cut out of the loop as far as these secret programs go. But I guess I should be happy at the prospect of justice.
No he doesn’t. The Newsweak article is proof of that. And if the article isn’t proof enough, see Holder’s own words.
Source
Any word on whether Holder got back with the number he approved? What a hypocrite he is. He signed off on real torture. Reckon he stared across the avenue on those occasions?
History is indeed watching Mr. Holder. The problem is, history didn’t begin on January 21, 2001 and end on January 21, 2009.
Axey…you’re conflating the issue yet again…
In comment #39 you’re conflating “rendition” with torture. Rendition or it’s legality isn’t the topic or focus on the article this discussion.
The heading says…
“NEWSWEEK: Holder ‘May be on Verge’ of Torture Probe ”
Not rendition probe.
Your comment #40 is also extremely deflecting from the issue at hand.
You see Axey; Torture didn’t happen until the W Bush administration (at least not with offical illegale sanctions).It is that administration that sanctioned and executed those illegalites. An admitted 185 times. That’s the issue, should those acts which occured between Jan 21, 2001 and Jan. 21, 2009 be prosecuted.
Your deflection of “Clinton and others did it too” is pretty funny actually….seems right wingers love to blame Clinton for their own shortcomings.
What happened to the party of “personal responsility” ?
You all sure deflect responsibility when things get hot.
Maybe I need to ask Axey…
Axey did you even read the above article ?
I could care less if Clinton did it. It’s Holder I’m holding to a higher standard since he is the one looking out over the avenues with a heavy heart. I have more respect for someone who owns the harsh interrogations than someone who farmed it out where real torture took place. And you would too if you were honest about why you want these show trials.
As I said, Bush owned it. You want to give Holder a pass? I don’t. This is the same man that had no problem allowing suspected terrorists to be taken, by the same CIA he is now wanting to investigate, to Egyptian prisons to be interrogated/tortured.
That you think one is not the issue, only the other, shows your partisanship. I don’t want Clinton investigated or probed. Just Holder.
Still conflating Axey…
You’re substituting rendition (which isn’t the issue); with torture which is the issue. See your own post #39…
You twist the subject…if the article was about rendition…then you have a point.
It’s not about rendition…it’s about prosecutions for torture.
Now if you want to talk about rendition…then so be it. But don’t confuse that issue with this one.
They were tortured when they were sent to those prisons. Some were killed. And we put them there. How do you find the two not related?
No
Rendition is an unAmerican, terrible program in my opinion. But that is beside the point in this case.
If you read the article that this thread is commenting on you’ll see…
“Holder began to review those policies in April. As he pored over reports and listened to briefings, he became increasingly troubled. There were startling indications that some interrogators had gone far beyond what had been authorized in the legal opinions issued by the Justice Department, which were themselves controversial. He told one intimate that what he saw “turned my stomach.”
It was soon clear to Holder that he might have to launch an investigation to determine whether crimes were committed under the Bush administration and prosecutions warranted. The obstacles were obvious. For a new administration to reach back and investigate its predecessor is rare, if not unprecedented.”
Holder isn’t questioning how those prisoners got there…He was concerned about their TREATMENT while in our custody. That is the issue, not rendition.
Again I say, I despise rendition, but in this discussion rendition isn’t the issue.
Talking about torture and rendition…2 different vile animals.
No. Talking about the same thing. Are Holder’s hands clean because he didn’t sign off on the actual interrogation techniques that would be used in those countries? If you want to prosecute someone whose hands are dirty when it comes to actual torture, then Holder is your man. If you are just looking for Bush blood, and you are, then I suspect you’ll get your wish. Obama’s approval ratings along with his policies, are tanking. The “rogue” AG is a nice touch, though.
Axey…here’s the difference…rendition and torture…
http://www.brookings.edu/opinions/2007/1019rendition.aspx
“4. Rendition is just a euphemism for outsourcing torture.
Well, not historically. The guidelines for Clinton-era renditions required that subjects could be sent only to countries where they were not likely to be tortured — countries that gave assurances to that effect and whose compliance was monitored by the State Department and the intelligence community. It’s impossible to be certain that those standards were upheld every time, but serious efforts were made to see that they were. At a minimum, countries with indisputably lousy human rights records (say, Syria) were off-limits. Another key difference: Renditions before Bush were carried out to disrupt terrorist activity, not to gather intelligence or interrogate individuals.
Now, though, the Bush team seems to have dramatically eroded such safeguards. The administration has apparently sent someone to Syria, and Khaled el-Masri, a German citizen, was evidently boosted in Macedonia and interrogated in Afghanistan in a manner that sure sounds like torture. In light of this and other revelations, the criticism that the administration has “defined down” torture looks pretty persuasive. It’s probably a good bet that Congress or the next administration will reform the program, or abolish it outright
”
Rendition has been used as far back as Reagan…it was a tool in fighting terrorism. It didn’t include torure; or at least not torture sanctioned by the WhiteHouse illegally.
It’s not the taking of those suspects that is the issue…it was their treatment while in our custody.
Comment #47….
So it’s now Holder’s fault ?
seriously…?
Hi Brad Readers! Please call Eric Holder today! 202-514-2001 or email at AskDOJ@usdoj.gov
Ask him to appoint a Special Prosecutor!
Let’s help him make up his mind…
Axey…I’m not trying to be a smartass.
How did you do in the reading comprehension sections of standardized tests ?
Did you exclude certain facts and sections of material that didn’t suit your tastes ?
You seem to be awfully one track minded despite loads of evidence that contradicts your beliefs about this…
Amazing
Comment #50…Flowerguerrilla
WILL DO!
I’m on it.
… farmed it out where real torture took place.
You can’t snake out of torture and hold this administration accountable for it, too. Make up your mind.
We have prosecuted, executed, others for doing the same things we have been doing. The entire world agrees they are crimes of the highest order and if they do not get prosecuted here, we do not have our country back. We have fascist Italy and Germany.
Have a listen to this quick [half hour] history lesson, and tell me if it doesn’t sound entirely too familiar. To be a rule of law nation, instead of a fascist nation, you have to prosecute the elite equally with the proletariat, and failing to prosecute them for war crimes, you might agree, makes us, beyond question, a fascist state.
This partisan squabbling is sickening. Anyone trying to excuse anyone for torture is sickening. It’s not just the inhumanity. It’s the entire structure of the United States.
Also, for this reason, just going after the guys lower on the pecking order is too little too late. Get the guys who are giving our officials their orders. How many boys did we lose in WWII to eradicate them? They’re not eradicated. They’re in charge.
I know the difference.
I have no valid argument to counter this. You win. Torture not sanctioned by the WH is good. Harsh interrogations sanctioned by the WH is bad.
I can and will hold Holder accountable for sending terrorists to prisons that practiced real torture.
So you agree with me that Holder needs to be investigated too.
My country is still here. For the time being.
I want to add the word suspected in front of terrorists. None of them were convicted, just suspected.
Agent 99 …I like the way you think ..upthread. Great post on Daily Kos and DU by David Swanson , I think… He has seen 1200 photographs of torture victims.
It is powerful. Says Cheney should be indicted. Enough evidence.Phone numbers in the comments of those to call.
PUSH AG HOLDER TO INDICT & PROSECUTE
Bush, Cheney and their Torture Advocating Appointee Lawyers.
SIGN THE PETITION At http://ANGRYVOTERS.ORG
Axey
I do not care WHO it is, and neither does any other rule-of-law democratic republican. They should be prosecuted if they tortured or renditioned for torture.
Period.
And if you think you’ve got your country, you obviously don’t mind oligarchy, corporatism, fascism. You want to be a friend of the State and let them off the hook for crimes, salute them for their crimes, argue in favor of their immunity from the Rule of Law. You want the plutocrats to take all the wealth from the people, and let them go jobless, homeless and starve if they can’t keep up on the few cents an hour someone is willing to pay for their labor. THAT is what your country is, and THAT is what the United States was founded to prevent. THAT is what our troops have died to prevent since the inception of this country.
If you want to protest that this is not true, that you are not a fascist sympathizer, or partisan about the application of the law, then you can’t insist Holder be held to account unless you cede that everyone from the last administration be held to account as well. Try to get that straight.
Of course you do. Otherwise, you wouldn’t be arguing with me about whether Holder should be included in the investigation too.
I don’t have to cede anything. Holder should, but won’t.
I am not arguing with you about whether Holder should be included. If he has renditioned people for torture, he should be included. Maybe I missed your substantiation of that point… or one doesn’t exist as yet. Mox nix.
Your shit about renditioning for “real” torture as though the torture on those not renditioned wasn’t really torture, is just that: shit.
We like trolls who bring out real discussion here, but you’re getting very tedious with your mindless adherence to the script.
Can’t you see that it doesn’t matter if it’s a Republican fascism or a Democratic fascism? If it’s fascism, and it is, it’s not American. We either fix it or give up. I suppose if you’re making over a quarter million dollars a year or have many millions in the bank you might be on the side of not bothering to fix it… but that means you shouldn’t be bothering to argue with people here, or anywhere else. You’re just causing the process to drag out.
But doing it for a penny or a nickel or a dime or a quarter or even a dollar a post isn’t going to get you anywhere either, or your kids, or your grandkids. It only makes the rich richer and the not rich poorer and increasingly more uncomfortable… on top of ensuring that our troops are tortured wherever they are captured. Is this a worthy use of your time? Who is it finds this likable about you? Enjoying that, are you?
Axey said Holder’s call for accountability a “show trial.”
That’s using right wing code. Atta boy!
What we all want is a justice trial and Holder knows very well HE will be tried in the media, not with facts, but with lies if he goes forward with this. He is taking a brave step toward REAL American values, not “show trials”
We should all want that! That’s why I’ve signed onto so many torture accountability petitions, there’s no way I can remember which ones.
We need to stand with Holder against the media. He is few, and they are many. We’ve all been horrified to see that media was able to dispose of concerns with something as simple to understand as corporate voting machines.
I hate trolls!
I didn’t really believe right wingers paid folks to troll progressive sites…until I’ve read Axey’s crap.
This guy has to be paid…he can’t really believe the feces he spreads here.
Axey,
(Comment #38: “Holder already has the backing of the American people
No he doesn’t. The Newsweak article is proof of that. And if the article isn’t proof enough, see Holder’s own words. “)
Check out this link, with two polls (CBS+Gallup) both showing majority support for torture investigations.
99 is spot on as usual. I don’t give a rat’s ass what party is behind sanctioning torture, or rendition for torture for that matter. Those who ordered rendition for captives who were then tortured, I believe these people are culpable and should be held to account. I would like to hold Holder himself to account in this, and if a special prosecutor includes Holder’s directives under Clinton in any investigation, then Holder himself should be indicted, and if we have to drag Clinton, Bush Sr., and dig up the corpse of Reagan then I’m willing to go the distance.
The fabric of our constitutional representative government is severely frayed, and I think that a full accounting of crime and application of justice is the only thing that can right this sinking ship. And quite frankly I don’t think any of us are fully prepared for what overturning that stone will shed light on, regardless of how loony left or wingnut right we may be. But the stone must be lifted nonetheless.
Consider it akin to a 12-step program for addiction. You have to hit rock bottom before you realize you need help. We are institutionally “addicted” to war, torture, militarism, and all other kinds of heinous crimes – economic, environmental, whatever. We have to fundamentally reconsider our course as a nation, what it means to be American, what rights and responsibilities we have to humanity. I see this as a glimmer of hope in that direction, but it will assuredly get far uglier in terms of what we know than it is right now.
Soul Rebel,
Nicely put.
Clint… CBS and Gallup don’t have the integrity with their polls they once did, and Holder knows full well there is a huge portion of the population who want prosecutions. He just knows Obama is dead set against them and that pissing these people off can be hazardous to one’s health.
That’s probably Obama’s chief concern too.
THAT’S NO EXCUSE. THEY TOOK OATHS. THIS IS AMERICA.
Didn’t the Nazi SS get their start by going after political adversaries?
Comment #69….
Can you be more hysterical Dan ?…not hysterical funny;
But hysterical as in frenzied, spasmodic, neurotic, emotional or frantic…
Or is it that you’re simply trying to trot out the Nazi SS in association with this to demean or nullify enforcing our laws…
Do you think American law should only be emforeced when you feel it’s appropiate ?
Ask Don Siegelman about prosecuting political adversaries…
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/02/21/60minutes/main3859830.shtml
I’m watching “Morning Joe” and it’s nauseating…Liz Cheney and some other hack are tag teaming Eugene Robinson (ineffectual) about the possiblity of these prosecutions.
They actually call this reporting to a democratic nation ?
What it is called is “shaping public opinion” or “marketing” a position. For these yahoos to call their show “political commentary” is insulting to our intelligence. They are purely propagandists.
I think it’s apparent where the MSM stands on this issue.
Hell I’d be better off watching ESPN…I won’t be better informed, but I won’t be mad as hell either.
Sickening
I’m sitting here stunned, watching in disbelief from a former Warsaw Pact country. I just can’t get my head around what I’m reading. How can this be anything but cut and dried? You break an official oath of office or service, you go to jail, plain and simple. At least that’s how it was for me (1965-1969) and my brethren, serving our country in far less prestigious positions, even to the point that upholding our oath very well might lead to our demise. Kid, this ain’t your father’s America, not by a woefully long shot. But it’s going to be an epic struggle – these sociopathic miscreants are in full panic mode (note that the trolls are springing up like mushrooms in a cow pasture after a summer rain, but, unlike the mushrooms, the trolls are toxic) and if they are to be driven out it won’t be without titanic resistance. But no matter how dire the battles, Good MUST prevail over Evil, or the sad fact will be that it has all been lost, that the human race is entering into its death spiral. And Good versus Evil has nothing whatsoever to do with Asses and Elephants, as most members of both “parties” will wind up doing time, if justice is to be served…
Hey, and I’m living in the land of Franz Kafka…
Comment #54…..Agent 99…
Great post…and AWESOME link.
very informative….
Thank you. I have been hassling everyone I know to listen to that. It is vital information at this point in history, no two ways about that. Pass it on.
Agent 99 and BLUEHAWK:
It’s amazing how things never really change throughout history. One of the things that caught me in that audio clip was the fact the fascists were able to prosecute the non-fascists through obviously packed courts.
I afraid what can happen here is that the ROW, (rest of world, (joke I picked up a guest from Bill Maher’s show)), might feel it necessary to invade. I will try to defend my country, but my spirit will be dampened by a deep sense of: who can blame them.
Not good!
Yeah, working class gets prosecuted to the hilt for any crime; plutocrats can murder anyone they want and not even be prosecuted; no unions; stupidly low wages with stupidly high taxes; no choice if your employer wants to move you somewhere else; no overtime pay; no social services; big business gets bailed out of every jam… all kinds of other stuff becoming too familiar….
I remember a time when people could, AND DID, have one day of rest, (to be spent at church, being bored.) But they also had Saturday, (to be spent, (yes, it’s true), doing whatever they wanted, (if legal.)
Was that bad?
Yes; two days in a row, EVERY WEEK! And most everybody didn’t have to worry about extra work being piled up when they left work because most shops closed at 5:00 pm!
I know now, that other countries, and younger children, worked longer and harder then I did, with no time off that I know of, making shoes for me. Can’t of-age Americans make my shoes?
This sickens me!
COMMENT #73 [Permalink]
… czaragorn said on 7/14/2009 @ 12:34 pm PT…
Hey, and I’m living in the land of Franz Kafka…
————
So are we, now.