Guest blogged by Jon Ponder, Pensito Review.
On Sunday, BeliefNet reported that the website for Rick Warren’s Saddleback Church in Orange County, Cal., contained a warning that unrepentant gays were forbidden from joining the church:
Yesterday, that section, which was part of a longer diatribe about the sin of homosexuality (see below), is gone. According to BeliefNet, this link led to the page banning gays. Now it connects to a page titled “What We Believe.” BeliefNet is known for down-the-line reporting on religion. It was recently purchased by Rupert Murdoch’s Newscorp.
Via Good As You, there are are still offensive statements about gays on the megachurch site:
While there is no consensus on what causes sexuality, there is no legitimate science that suggests it is fundamentally a choice. And comparing homosexuality to addiction is the sort of sanctimonious, anti-factual ranting for which megachurch Christians earn their reputation for feeble-mindedness.
Here is the complete statement from the Saddleback website as it was excerpted by BeliefNet:
The Bible very clearly says that homosexuality is a sin.
“Homosexuality is absolutely forbidden, for it is an enormous sin.” (Lev. 18:22 TLB)
“Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexual offenders, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor slanderers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.” (1 Cor 6:9-11 NIV)
While all sin is destructive, Romans 6 warns us of the great dangers in sexual sin when it says, “Run away from sexual sin! No other sin so clearly affects the body as this one does. For sexual immorality is a sin against your own body.” (1 Cor 6:18 NLT) This includes not only homosexuality, but all sexual immorality: adultery, sex without marriage, pornography. We must not act as if homosexuality is the only serious sexual sin, and we must not act as if homosexuality is not a serious sexual sin.
I’ve heard it asked, “Isn’t being homosexual something that a person is physically born with?” First of all, there are absolutely no facts to support this claim. From time to time studies have been reported in the news that seemed to indicate this, but every one of these studies has proven to be wrong. Secondly, even if some physical difference were discovered, it would be no excuse for sin. We know that some people can develop a stronger physical addiction to alcohol than others, but that’s obviously no excuse for living an alcoholic lifestyle.
Finally, a word about being judgmental. It’s not judgmental to say that what the Bible calls a sin is a sin, that’s just telling the truth. Not being willing to talk to someone caught up in sin, or not believing that they can be forgiven, or thinking that you are not just as much in need of Jesus as they are … that’s being judgmental.
Because membership in a church is an outgrowth of accepting the Lordship and leadership of Jesus in one’s life, someone unwilling to repent of their homosexual lifestyle would not be accepted at a member at Saddleback Church. That does not mean they cannot attend church – we hope they do! God’s Word has the power to change our lives.
In equal desire to follow Jesus, we also would not accept a couple into membership at Saddleback who were not willing to repent of the sexual sin of living together before marriage. That does not mean this couple cannot attend church – we hope they do! God’s Word has the power to change our lives
By any rational analysis of the Scriptures, adultery is a worse sin than homosexuality, both quantitatively — adultery is mentioned much more often — and qualitatively — adultery is forbidden in the Ten Commandments; homosexuality is not. Nor did Jesus ever mention it.
Adultery causes serious societal problems. It is the real threat to “traditional marriages,” half of which end in divorce, usually because of adultery. Adulterers’ injured parties suffer severe stress and quite often financial hardship. Adultery is the leading cause of single-parent households. Children of adulterers are often emotionally scared for life.
Adulterers are 100 percent more likely to spread sexually transmitted diseases than are faithful partners. Adulterers are, by definition, liars.
And yet Christians like Rick Warren make no effort to rescind adulterers’ civil rights. Adulterers are free to remarry and adopt children. Unlike gay people, adulterers can’t be fired or evicted because of their status as sinners.
When the day comes that right-wing ideologues like Warren take action against the rights of adulterers, we can start to believe their moralizing is sincere. Until then, we have to assume that they are using the Bible as a fig leaf to cover their personal prejudices and, too often, their own twisted self-hatred.
Not quite an apology. Not nearly enough. Self serving political maneuvers probably directed by the Obama camp. Warren supposedly went to a West Hollywood to get some photo ops to further his propaganda. The religious right must think that the gay community is full of GOP southern state like lock step Palin loving clones. Warren is not fooling anyone; he is however apparenlty running scared.
Quit running; just apologize. Retract your hate speech, your gay racist rhetoric. Then we’ll all join in prayer; until then you’re just another conservative GOP liar and the gay community is standing firm.
Another good reason to tone down the polemicizing….
Melissa Etheridge on the matter of the Rick Warren invocation….
Keep it up, you’re sure to have the Pukes in power come 2010 and ’12…seems like it’s planned that way through the MSM.
Are you guys idiots or what?
They lose all credibility in citing the Living Bible in their scripture citations. This “translation” is an un-scholarly desecration of the Bible. The quote “Homosexuality is absolutely forbidden, for it is an enormous sin” (TLB) is a poor evangelical INTERPRETATION of Lev. 18:22, which reads in any other translation, “You shall not lie with a male as with a female, for this is an abomination.” In the same book eating shrimp is denoted as an abomination. For more on how the Bible is misused and distorted, visit my ministry http://www.TruthSetsFree.net
Justin
Melissa Ethridge is a kind good hearted person. Who is capitulating to Obama and Warren without said pastor retracting his hate speech; that makes her just as complicit as Obama. She joins the tema of those offering an hand out in unity where it is not deserved. This man is running a Rove like propaganda campaign now to defer the rhetoric he has used in the past. His web site toning down its fpr who’s purpose, certainly not the gay community. Has he apologized, has he rallied his Christian supporters and asked them to tone down the politics. He is on high gear. Those that call the gay community to tone it down are Pelosi/Reid like capitulators. The gay community stands to gain nothing from ignoring or accepting or toning down anything about Warrens selection. Never forget it. For those that urge you to; let them be fools if they want. There is nothing improper about the level of anger this selection has wrought. The pacifist among us however; are perfectly willing to accept this man without him uttering any remorse. I say that is foolish. Gays are not the horrible things this man preaches, and letting him off the hook, allowing Obama to feel his calculated actions are somehow ok, and joining the ranks of wishful thinkers like Mrs Ethridge is not proper or acceptable. Tone down the politics; did his with Prop 8? Tone down the politics, did Obama by selecting him?
When Obama returns from Hawaii, there should be nation wide rallys like right after Prop 8 asking him to rescind his selection until this man apologizes. That is the proper response, not this caving in that is being asked of us.
Warren in a nut bag.
That said, Happy Holidays, Happy New Year, Happy Winter Solstice etc to Brad & 99 and all the Bradblogites.
Great points re: adultery, Jon! Well done.
In fact, what Leviticus 18:22 literally translated, in Hebrew (I am Israeli) is that men sleeping together in the manner they sleep with women is forbidden and and an abomination. In the eyes of the time, this almost certainly states that you can’t use homosexual sexual relations as a means of “birth control” to avoid – purposefully or as a result thereof – fathering children.
The same old testament that says this also comments on the various kings and other notables and their “special” relationships outside their primary marriage to one or more women with a man – and not a one with a negative connotation!
This same old testament specifically allows for multiple wives and mistresses – all with various legal rights and obligations, as well as same-sex “special friends” – finally, it makes no direct mention of female-female relationships – and NO negative ones – curious.
We (NOT I) pick and choose among the various rules and regulations the old testament handed down, we pick the ones that feel right to us and discount the rest. This is not belief, it is pragmatic choice – and it would seem that over the years this pragmatic choice has resulted in much division, hatred, and misery. ALL people (every one of us!) sin by the exact word of the book, and religious people by and large sin far more since they break the vary rules they claim to adhere to routinely.
The bible part about men not sleeping with men as they do women is about not getting your dick all covered with germs that climb up into a woman’s insides and KILL her. Simple as that, and it was righteous advice at the time. Still is for anyone ignorant of the biological facts involved. Same with the injunctions against pork. Too many people died of ptomaine poisoning.
There are some/many Christians who think that the Old Testament statements are against fertility rights, particularly those of Astarte. Agent 99, I doubt that germs and filth were even in the equation at the time, or that anyone cared about women’s health, except women.
The exhortations about sexual sins most likely refer to the sexual scandals of the day: Caligula and others were actually along the lines of infamous serial killers like Gacy and Dalmer. Sexual misbehavior then was horrendous.
I am waiting to see how this plays out, and give Warren the benefit of the doubt, because everyone evolves. I belong to a “reconciling” church, which is the same as an “open and accepting” church. There was a lot of controversy about this a few years ago, and now it is all gone. Many of the oldsters who opposed this embrace it fully, and openly admit that they had it wrong and now see the light.
Wilburrr… I’m all for not wasting seed on republicans . . .
72, I am given to understand that Jesus cared about women. I also know that the deal at the time, and still in some places, was that women are for babies and men are for fun…. Even modern day wife beaters are very, very seriously bummed when their wives die in agony.
It was not merely an indictment of debauched evildoers. One hardly need mention their sexual excesses to deal with that.
From 99’s first link (emphasis mine):
“Anytime there is an anti-LGBT initiative, we tend to see spikes both in the numbers and the severity of attacks,” [Avi Skolnick] said. “People feel this extra entitlement to act out their prejudice.”
Rick Warren’s type of rhetoric fuels the nutcases who commit these crimes. Rick Warren may be acting all conciliatory toward Melissa Etheridge but in the end he equates homosexuality with sinning. That’s what he means, that’s what he preaches, and that’s what people will learn from him.
Yes, and my point, of course, is that progressives and gays pitching fits about him ONLY fuels his power amongst his constituents, and gives him MORE power over politicians, who in turn use our manias, for or against, to get our sorry asses out on election day, while NOT solving the problem.
The Constitution solves it. Press it in the courts and shut up about the preachers and homophobes and bad progressives, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, before you set gays’ human rights back even further. It’s as damn plain as the noses on our faces and yet really very few people are paying attention.
They just want to fight and whine and complain. It’s driving me out of my skull crazy. SO stupid. We’re supposed to be ADULTS. How the heck can we have a better society, a better world, when most people WON’T let go of their kneejerk reactions and use their intelligence?
Aaaaaaaaaaaagggggggggggghhhhhhh!
Dear 99,
With great respect and gentleness, I do claim the right to disagree with you.
Shutting up about wrong moves by our leaders has never been and never will be the right thing to do.
IMHO.
You have every right to disagree with me, Lora! If you didn’t make it sound like I was trying to stifle your free speech, instead of trying to direct people’s energies somewhere productive of positive things, instead of continuing only to feed the circus, I’d feel better about it.
What are you saying/doing about our leaders’ participation in this?
99,
Well I don’t think you would stifle my free speech but you have come down heavy on me each time I’ve expressed my opinion on the subject of Warren, or so it seems. Your opinion being that I/we shouldn’t even be discussing this stuff, while not precisely stifling, does send the message: don’t talk about it.
And it is your right of course to decide I’m only “feeding the circus.” I like to argue points and toss around ideas. If that is your idea of feeding the circus and not being productive, so be it. It’s not mine.
As to your challenge thrown, all I’m doing at the moment, on that and most issues, is to try to educate myself about it and engage in dialogue when others have a different view. The Israeli/Palestinian conflict is not one I know very much about. I should educate myself further, I know.
I have on occasion written letters to the editor, signed petitions, made phone calls, sent emails, worn symbols, even marched years ago in support of various issues. I haven’t done much of it and I respect and appreciate those who do so much more. I did not mean to suggest that you were not trying to direct people into positive action.
As far as being productive and positive with people’s energies, well, that’s my day job, in a sense, I guess.
Anyway, I’m not looking for a fight, just a chance to exchange ideas and opinions. Maybe I’m too much talk and too little action, but talking and thinking things through is my style. If you think raising objections (like those against Warren) harms a cause, I’d like to see the evidence. If you think there’s a specific action I should be doing besides talking, give me the details and I’ll consider it.
I have a thought exercise for you. Try to think of me as an old family friend, someone who babysat you as a child, took you to the zoo, attended your graduation, that sort of thing. I’m someone who wants the best for you and am never attacking you. I’m someone who knows the nuances of the political perfidies of our world, and who knows the gay-rights-cum-human-rights thing has run its course. Contrary to the beliefs of those still locked in the pall of lifetimes full of persecution and/or derision, gays have won. It’s all over but the signing on the dotted line. The cultural push is over, and high time. It outlasted its benefits, and is only serving to feed those who wish them ill, those wish to legislate away what is their Constitutional right. It has been for long an extremely selfish, if understandable battle, but since the battle has been won, it’s way down the list of things that should be taking up our attention and energy, and only giving fodder for the pastors to get more money and clout through their churches.
The work left to be done is in the courts. There are good, solid, rational, determined groups who are dealing with this, and if you still want to do something about it, donate to them, or volunteer.
Or just get about the business of living like the rest of us, showing us you are one of us just by joining in with the big planetary emergencies and human suffering going on full steam.
It’s not the most important thing. In fact, making a hairy deal out of it has turned only destructive to the victory already won. This war is over… unless you keep giving the Christianists fodder to bring back and say, See, the queers hate God.
Discussing it as though it were something that yielded to discussion anymore is not just waste, but counterproductive.
Take on something more needful of your time and understanding now.
Above all, examine your obvious need to feel innocent of wrongdoing, or error, or omission, and to point at others who seem not to be innocent to you.
Basically, do the thought experiment of changing me out of whatever label you’ve given me, and see if my points don’t sink in better, when you are provisionally not bucking a stranger who’s had it up past her eyeballs with the incessant gay human rights cause. I’m on your side.
Gays are human. They have guaranteed rights in this country. Period.
And, I am mortally sick of this whole thing.
99,
You apparently know all. Why didn’t I see it before. I have been silenced.
I apparently have a really good handle on the part of the problem that each of us has the power to help alleviate, of that much I am sure. And you apparently won’t take a point, no matter how serious or consequential. So… sheesh… good.
I get the point. No discussion allowed. The topic is sickening. It only hurts the cause and distracts from saving the world.
Close! Discussion of the topic is sickening because it only hurts the cause and distracts from saving the world.
So discussion IS allowed, despite all your efforts to stop it? That’s good, as I believe that is the policy on this site (emphasis mine):
As for this cuteness at my expense:
I don’t know where you are coming from. How have I portrayed myself as innocent of error, omission, or wrongdoing? I do think you are wrong to try to quell discussion on this topic. It goes against stated policy. I had no “need” other than to find out if this site really believes in free and open discussion as it states.
I had no label for you. I am only “bucking” you for the right to have a discussion, even one you disagree with and are sick to death of. My suggestion to you is to just scroll by if you are that sick of it and let other people talk about it if they want. If that is not possible, then fine, I am done, as no one else either disagrees with you or wishes to run the gauntlet.
I won’t respond further on this thread.
You have seen that your free speech has not been abridged.
I don’t give a fuck if you continue to insist that feeding the bottomless political wedge machine is just your “right to have a discussion”. IT’S STUPID. It’s wrong, if difficult to discern as such until someone points it out. Tony Look [way above] is crazy to go fight blacks, or the black church, because BILL O’REILLY convinced him it was blacks that passed Prop. 8.
He goes off into the world and into the halls of Blogistan freaking about that stuff, and the wingnuts and the lunatic preachers, all those people with big audiences and huge congregations get the more fodder to whip their constituencies
TO VOTE
TO DONATE MONEY THAT GOES TOWARD LOBBYING
To drive me wild because I have been screaming for people to get smart about this for years now. Still, people go on and on and on, dissing the living snot out of those fiends, FEEDING them. THEY LOVE IT!
IT MAKES THEM RICH! IT MAKES THEM POWERFUL.
And it makes me crazy.