GANDHI: Does Reality Even Matter?

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Guest blogged by Gandhi.

INTRODUCTION {by Winter Patriot}: I am pleased to introduce one of my favorite bloggers, the Australian known as “Gandhi”. His blog, Bush Out (by Gandhi), is a treasure trove of factual material concerning the bush administration and its rush to war, its record of deceit, and much else. For quite a while now I have been asking readers of my own blog to check out Gandhi’s work, and I am very pleased to share a small excerpt of it with you today.

Does Reality Even Matter?

I’ve looked at clouds from both sides now,
From up and down,
But still somehow
It’s cloud illusions I recall
I really don’t know clouds at all.

— Joni Mitchell

The illusory perception of reality is a dilemma which has long intrigued philosophers and commoners alike. What is reality? How do we know something is real and not just an illusion? How do we even know that the world is real, or that we ourselves are real?

Descartes in his pyjamas famously wrote: “I think, therefore I am.” We are forced to assume that our perception of reality, although necessarily subjective, is sufficient basis for further rationalisation. Otherwise, everything becomes absurd and nothing whatsoever will stand up to further analysis, logical inspection or reasoning. Consciously or otherwise, we all make such a leap of faith as the basis for our understanding of reality.

But how can we prove something is real, if another person says that it is not? My view of reality and your view of reality will necessarily differ from time to time. This difference is often demonstrated by reviewing the testimonies of witnesses to a car accident – although a dozen people may have seen the incident occur, all may have widely varying beliefs about what actually happened. A detective trying to ascertain what really happened needs to analyze all these viewpoints in relation to other solid facts that can be universally verified by all (the tyre marks on the road, the broken windscreen…). By such means, an objective version of reality can be reached, proven and generally agreed upon by all parties. The acknowledgement of such an objective reality is the basis of civil society.

I like to think that this all has something to do with the purpose of our lives here on earth. Objective reality can be maddeningly frustrating sometimes, but it teaches us valuable lessons which help us grow as spiritual beings. We learn to understand and tolerate the differing viewpoints of others. We follow the road rules, remember our manners and generally obey the laws of the land because we understand the potential for chaos if everybody were to behave too selfishly. From all this, we develop a sense of right and wrong, good and bad, even good and evil.

Of course, not everybody respects or appreciates these lessons in co-operative altruism to the same degree. Some people stubbornly refuse to acknowledge the viewpoints, interests or feelings of others. Some people lie, cheat, steal and even murder, seemingly without guilt or remorse. Some of these people may be desperate because of poverty, illness or other pressures. Some may have lacked good teachers in their childhood – given careful mentoring, they can often be taught to change. Others, of course, are sociopaths, seemingly incapable of the mental leap required to empathise wtih another person’s point of view. Others are simply insane.

Others, however, are relatively intelligent, well-educated and even wealthy, well-connected people who make a very conscious, deliberate decision to enforce their views on others, whatever the cost. Such are the neo-conservative ideologues who currently control the Bush White House. These people have taken the dark arts of political spin and pressure lobbying to bizarre new depths, relentlessly distorting or supressing facts in pursuit of their stated goal – turning the USA into a supreme, global empire with so much military and economic power that it cannot be challenged again, ever, by anyone (including, it now seems, its own citizens).

*

The key ideological component of neo-conservative philosphy was famously explained to New York Times reporter Ron Suskind by an un-named Bush aide:

The aide said that guys like me were ”in what we call the reality-based community,” which he defined as people who ”believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality.” I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. ”That’s not the way the world really works anymore,” he continued. ”We’re an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you’re studying that reality — judiciously, as you will — we’ll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that’s how things will sort out. We’re history’s actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.”

The arrogance, the surreal, self-indulgent deception and the wilfully fantastic ignorance of such a statement is simply staggering. You can almost hear the inevitable crunch of reality – and here I’m talking about the shared, objective reality which has governed our universe for millenia, not the more recent Fox News version – coming down on this un-named aide’s sneering little head. And yet, as events of the past few years have proved, this neocon mouthpiece was very nearly right.

Over the past decade, the neo-conservatives have infiltrated key government departments, media organisations, the judiciary and even foreign governments. They have closely aligned themselves with big business interests, fundamentalist Christian groups and powerful political insiders on both sides of US politics, to form what they themselves have laughingly called a “cabal”. This cabal has hand-picked a malleable puppet president and squeezed him through not just one but two national elections, despite any number of horrific gaffes and tragic miscalculations. They have engineered a pre-emptive attack on a soveriegn nation, in contravention of international laws which the USA itself helped to set up only 50 years ago. They have torn down civil rights and liberties enshrined in the US Constitution for centuries, while building up a national deficit that will cripple the US economy for generations to come.

Amazingly, they have done all this (and much, much more) with the full and vocal support of a huge swathe of the US public. This has only been possible because of massive and relentless media support, aided and abetted by more subtle support from voices in the Christian right. These Bush supporters preach “moral values” while aggressively casting anyone who disagrees with them as a “terrorist”, a “terrorist sympathizer”, or – worse yet – a “liberal”. It is a negative, fear-based modus operandi which will readily discard the truth in favour of any lie that scores a political hit or a 5-second sound-bite. Worse yet, the Bush cabal are always ready to launch an immediate, hysterical, over-the-top campaign of intimidation against anyone who dares criticize their antics.

Throughout Bush’s term in office, in almost all areas of his administration, facts have been distorted, suppressed or just plain made up. The Iraq War itself has been nothing if not a war of propaganda from the moment it was conceived. Same goes for the “urgent” need for Social Security reform. Whatever it takes to steamroll the project through the US public’s consciousness. The same disregard for truth characterized Bush’s presidential bids: what was all that crap about being a uniter, not a divider? Bush’s first 100 days were riddled with pre-planned, divisive policies and deliberately controversial decisions, even before 9/11 provided the perfect opportunity for the Mother Of All Lies.

The “Bush Bulge” story is a perfect example. The whole world saw a wireless transmitter stapped to Bush’s back during the presidential TV debate, but the Bush White House insisted that there was no bulge, or it was just a rumple in the suit, or in the shirt, or it was a medical device, or something else, anything but the truth. Faced with such blatant dissembling, even the New York Times and Washington Post refused to publish the truth. Elizabeth Bumiller of the New York Times later insisted:

You can’t just say the president is lying.

Why not? Every paper in the USA reported it when Clinton lied. Why can’t you report the truth in Bush’s USA? Who or what is stopping you? As websites like this haved proved again and again and again, Bush really is a liar!

If a tree falls in the Amazon rainforest on Bush’s watch, but the New York Times does not report it, has it really fallen? Well, yes it has, as we are painfully learning – and when thousands and thousands of such rainforest trees fall, our climate changes inevitably for the worse. The same thing goes for icebergs melting in the Arctic Circle or bodies rotting on the streets of Baghdad. Ignoring truths does not make them any less true. It just increases our ignorance.

As former CIA agent Robert Steele says, “This administration has chosen to use the propaganda tools of Hitler, Goering, and Goebels.” But no amount of propaganda can change the fact that the truth is still the truth, and will always remain the truth. Suppressing facts does not make them stop existing. Making up facts does not make them real.

*

So now to the Downing Street Memos, which prove that Bush’s cabal fixed the intelligence around the facts to justify his illegal invasion of Iraq. Or do they?

Bush’s team insist that the memos are “old news”. The facts revealed in these memos are nothing new, they say. It’s already been dealt with a long time ago. Let’s move on to the next question… Meanwhile, the Bush cabal’s fighting 101st Keyboard Brigade is busy spreading online rumours that the memos are fakes, even though they know this is not true. But what does that matter, as long as their propaganda gets through to the target audience?

The US media say they are not running the story of the Downing Street Memos because they don’t prove anything that was not already widely known. Well, it’s true that Knight Ridder was already quoting “senior administration officials” back in February, 2002 (five months before the memos), saying that Bush had already decided to go to war with Saddam:

“This is not an argument about whether to get rid of Saddam Hussein. That debate is over. This is … how you do it.”

Prescient reporting, non? Of course, we now know that the debate was over before it even began, which is why we are still having the debate today.

But do stories like this mean that the evidence contained in the memos is “old news”? Or is there actually a difference between anonymously-sourced reports and an official government memo, which quotes the head of British intelligence debreifing his UK cabinet colleagues about top-level conversations with the US leaders?

Why are we even having this debate?! What’s wrong with this picture?!

Mark Danner at Alternet disects the Downing Street Memo and the media’s wilfull ignorance of it. He quotes this section from a typically dismissive Michael Kinsley article, suitably titled “No Smoking Gun”:

Of course, if ‘intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy,’ rather than vice versa, that is pretty good evidence of Bush’s intentions, as well as a scandal in its own right. And we know now that was true and a half. Fixing intelligence and facts to fit a desired policy is the Bush II governing style, especially concerning the war in Iraq. But C offered no specifics, or none that made it into the memo. Nor does the memo assert that actual decision makers had told him they were fixing the facts.

As Danner wonders:

One might ask what would convince this writer, and many others, of the truth of what, apparently, they already know, and accept, and acknowledge that they know and accept. What could be said to establish “truth” — to “prove it”?

… failing the discovery of a tape recording in which President Bush is quoted explicitly ordering George Tenet that he should “fix the intelligence and facts around the policy,” many will never regard the case as proved — though all the while accepting, of course, and admitting that they accept, that this is indeed what happened.

As always with the Bush cabal’s arguments, the Orwellian logic is almost enough to drive you insane. But when the President himself declares that it’s his job to “catapult the intelligence”, what can you expect?

Unfortunately for the Bushites, feigning ignorance and stammering incoherent nonsense is not an acceptable method of dealing with the uncomfortable facts contained in these memos. And if the press won’t cover the story because it’s not “new” enough, we will make the story news. Those of us who still care about the truth are going to keep hammering and hammering this issue until it is properly addressed.

Just as the central issue of the lies that led us to war has refused to die, so too will the evidence provided in these damning memos continue to reverbrate. The truth will out.

{Winter Patriot again}: Gandhi will be dropping by from time to time, to look in on this thread and answer your questions and comments. So let’s see some good comments here!

… as if I have to ask 😉

This item is part of the First Annual BRAD BLOGATHON, conceived and implemented by readers of The BRAD BLOG! Please help keep Brad blogging. You can click HERE to donate using PayPal or your credit card, or click HERE to donate using snail mail. Many thanks on behalf of Brad and the Bloggers behind the Blogathon!

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GANDHI: Does Reality Even Matter?

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42 Responses

  1. 1)
    gandhi said on 7/12/2005 @ 2:06pm PT: [Permalink]

    Thanks again, WP and it’s a pleasure to be part of the blogathon.

    I think there are two key parts to this "reality" thread: firstly, the extent to which the Bush neo-cons have succeeded in their bizzarro quest to re-invent reality, and secondly, how we who remain in the "reality-based community" are responding to their warped distortions.

    There are a lot of related articles wherein anti-Bush commenters have bemoaned the seeming insanity that sometimes seems to be enveloping us like a dark cloud. For example:

    Maureen Dowd says, "It’s their reality. We just live in it." (from NYT, April 25) – and see her book, BushWorld.

    John S. Hatch has a great new post at Smirky’s.

    Riverbend’s family talk about "the *other* Iraq� the one with the WMD.�

    And as an example of how the neocons continue to distort reality, the latest talking points being used to defend Karl Rove make a great example! See Josh Marshall here and here and here and here

  2. 3)
    Peg C said on 7/12/2005 @ 3:03pm PT: [Permalink]

    Ghandi –

    Superb essay! It goes right along with a DemocracyNow! report this morning, in which Ken Tomlinson, head of CPB, talked about "fair and balanced" coverage on public radio and television. Real, fact-based investigative journalism (as in that of Bill Moyers’ "Now") was adjudged to have a "liberal bias," whereas it was moderation in fact-telling versus outright spin that he deemed "balanced." Senator Durbin really grilled him, but the opaque, inarticulate awfulness just barely masquerading as a human being slimed his way out of answering any of the questions put to him – by appearing to say something – or a least moving his lips and producing sounds.

  3. 5)
    gandhi said on 7/12/2005 @ 3:46pm PT: [Permalink]

    ‘sarright , peg, the smiley’s won’ hurt us!

    😎

    Of course, the key to changing everybody else’s reality (not just their own little world) is the Bush cabal’s control of the media via Rupert Murdoch’s FOX news and other outlets. This is how the Bush team ensure they get that winning 49% "majority". The attacks on PBS and any other outlet that dares criticize their lies is standard fare.

    You have to wonder whether these idealogues are really so blinded that they THINK there is a liberal bias in the media, or whether perhaps it is just a ploy to maintain control of the propaganda.

  4. 6)
    Winter Patriot said on 7/12/2005 @ 3:55pm PT: [Permalink]

    You have to wonder whether these idealogues are really so blinded that they THINK there is a liberal bias in the media, or whether perhaps it is just a ploy to maintain control of the propaganda.

    No I don’t! I don’t wonder at all. It’s a deliberate ploy. Been going on for years! 😉 Hi Gandhi! Nice to have you here with us!

  5. 7)
    William said on 7/12/2005 @ 4:01pm PT: [Permalink]

    Ghandi –

    Like Winter Patriot has said many times we have to be the media through the Whispering Campaign.
    Also I write my Representatives constantly so they can be informed also. Believe it or not, many of my letters are answered.
    I believe they are waiting to see what people are thinking before acting on anything.
    So keep those cards and letters (and flyers) coming.
    Thank you for your time.

  6. 8)
    gandhi said on 7/12/2005 @ 4:04pm PT: [Permalink]

    Hi WP. Nice to be here.

    I think there is necessarily a mix of those who are true believers and those who are just opportunists.

    The really astonishing thing is how they get Joe Blow and his wife on-side. How many times do you look at all those pro-Bush blogs and ask yourself, "Who reads this crap?"

    Mind you, with a little digging you often discover that the bloggers are not all they pretend to be. For example, Arthur "Good News" Chrenkoff works for a Liberal Senator (that’s the Aussie war party of choice for Bush & Co), while Ali Fadhil has admitted that his ITM brothers were mislead by neocon reps in Iraq…

    Which brings us back to my favourite Bush quote, the one which makes sense of everything else:

    "You can’t fool all of the people all of the time, but you can fool some of the people all of the time – and they’re the one’s you’ve gotta concentrate
    on!"

  7. 9)
    Winter Patriot said on 7/12/2005 @ 4:54pm PT: [Permalink]

    Here’s a quick recap:

    G: "You have to wonder whether these idealogues are really so blinded that they THINK there is a liberal bias in the media"

    WP: "No I don’t! I don’t wonder at all. It’s a deliberate ploy. Been going on for years!"

    G: "I think there is necessarily a mix of those who are true believers and those who are just opportunists. "

    ok now … I might be willing to give a bit of ground on this one if you define "THEY" … my first thought was guys like rove and scottie telling everyone who will listen: "Hey we’re really not all that bad — we’re just getting creamed by the liberal media!" … which sure seems like a ploy to me.

    Of course there are others with other motivations … so many of them that it’s tough to get a read on the motivating factors … at least for me it is … but I do believe that ignorance and stupidity are very powerful forces on the American political scene, and they are both on the rise in modern America, thanks in no small part to the bush administration’s continuing triple-pronged war on science, education and the news media.

    Just my opinion as always in matters of this sort … but I think you are exactly right, Gandhi. And I also think this administration has an active policy of trying to confuse every issue it can’t bury completely.

  8. 10)
    Arry said on 7/12/2005 @ 5:31pm PT: [Permalink]

    #9 WP says – " I do believe that ignorance and stupidity are very powerful forces on the American political scene, and they are both on the rise in modern America"

    Certainly agree with you. In fact, I think the dumbing of the population is the only way the administation can exist. Actually, there has been a dumbing trend for years, as I’m sure you are aware, built into the whole corporate colonization of culture. (And it has been quite consciously perpetrated.) The bush gang – if we can name the gang for the front man – thrive in that way of life and are taking it to an absurd, final (we shall hope), and recognizable level where propaganda, lies, coverups…money laundering, murder…have become crime pure and simple. Amazing how a fanaticism for empire and a compusion to control, when seen without accouterments, is something as familiar as unadulterated crime.

    I believe stupidity and ignorance is rising on one side and intelligence and knowledge is rising on another in reaction. Where they meet there is a reaction, a clash. It pretty much defines the era we are in. I guess we live in "interesting times."

  9. 11)
    gandhi said on 7/12/2005 @ 5:57pm PT: [Permalink]

    From WP #9:

    I might be willing to give a bit of ground on this one if you define "THEY" …

    That’s the thing with the Bush cabal – there are so many interested parties working together that it is almost always impossible to nail the real culprits on any one issue, especially as they all rush to one another’s defence.

    I think the True Believers are the hard-core neo-conservatives who carved out an ideological path ten years or more ago, the authors of the PNAC and their myriad devotees. I think that’s why Paul Wolfowitz makes these occasionally horrific gaffes, like admitting that the WMD issue was always just a convenient pretext for the invasion they always wanted. It’s actually a kind of naivety – he can’t think why anyone might be offended by that!

  10. 12)
    Arry said on 7/12/2005 @ 5:57pm PT: [Permalink]

    To stay on a philosophical level — Could it be that morality (that defines "crime" ultimately, I would assume)….morality that we have discussed here and that the busheviks like to talk about [but they "make their own reality"]…could it be that morality is reality-based?

    (I think the answer is "yes".)

  11. 13)
    gandhi said on 7/12/2005 @ 6:15pm PT: [Permalink]

    From Arry #10:

    Where they meet there is a reaction, a clash. It pretty much defines the era we are in.

    Well, that pretty much defines where the USA is at right now, but the rest of the world is just watching from the sidelines with a mixture of fear and bemusement. A real end-of-empire scenario, which is ironic because this is supposed to be the START of the Empire, isn’t it?

    True, Britain and Australia and Spain and Italy and other countries have governments which have ignored their citizen’s wishes to join Bush’s illegal war, but there is nothing happening (even here in Oz, where our militant PM wants to drag us back to the 1950s) like the ideological clash of Blue states v. Red states (or should that be Blue People v. Red People?) going on in the USA.

    What’s amazing is how inflamed US passions seem to be becoming on both sides – I can easily understand the anger against Bush & Co, but it’s important to also try and understand the feelings and thoughts of those "on the other side". Again, there seem to be two kinds of people raging against the "negativity" of the left: those who still believe the Bush lies, and those who originally bought into the Bush lies and now feel angry and frustrated at the way it is all being torn down.

    Of course, rather than acknowledging that the sheer force of REALITY is what’s bringing down the Bush house of lies, they prefer to blame the Liberals because it is more convenient and doesn’t make them feel so bad.

    I do sometimes fear that this cultural clash will eventually spill into violence, particularly as the Bush cabal has expressed a determination to maintain GOP control of everything, forever. Here’s our old friend Tom De Lay after the elections last year:

    "… we gained 4 more seats in the Senate, a bigger majority in the House, Bush is back in the White House; we will now be about securing permanent Republican rule."

    The Rove-Plame debate and the Bolton nominations are good test cases – will the Bush cabal ever back down on anything???

  12. 14)
    Winter Patriot said on 7/12/2005 @ 6:18pm PT: [Permalink]

    re #12. Arry, that’s because you’re reality-based. For faith-based people, everything is faith-based, so they say "no".

    According to them, if they believe they’re doing the right thing then they’re doing the right thing. End of story. And that’s why guys like richard perle can say things like

    "I think in this case international law stood in the way of doing the right thing."

    psst! pass it on!

  13. 15)
    gandhi said on 7/12/2005 @ 6:28pm PT: [Permalink]

    From Arry #12:

    could it be that morality is reality-based?

    (I think the answer is "yes".)

    That’s what I was trying to argue in my intro to this guest blog post.

    Life is a bit like a game of chess – it’s not really the board or the pieces that matter, it’s the rules and how you apply them. The board and the pieces are just the "reality-based" components that are required for the game to be played out…

    What I cannot understand is how Bush & Co claim the moral high ground for all their lies, and how the Christian right go along with it! It is going to be a very big and spectacular fall, when it comes…

  14. 16)
    jIM cIRILE said on 7/12/2005 @ 6:35pm PT: [Permalink]

    One of the really cool things about Brad Blog is discovering new voices out there through it. Thanks to Brad Blog I’ve recently gotten into Greg Palast and now Gandhi. Gandhi, that’s one great blog you’ve got there. I look forward to probing it in-depth… though likely not in the same way Guckert no doubt probed GWB all those nights he spent at the White House… ahem.

    Nice work indeed.

  15. 19)
    Bear said on 7/12/2005 @ 6:55pm PT: [Permalink]

    If any of you are interested in gaining insight into the Bush voting base "Reality", take a Sunday morning and attend church service at an evangelical establishment. May I suggest a Bible Baptist service. If you don’t walk out chilled, you have anti-freeze for blood. Research Bob Jones, Lester Roloff and other esteemed leaders of this sect. They could use the old phrase "The end justifies the means" as their motto.

  16. 20)
    gandhi said on 7/12/2005 @ 6:56pm PT: [Permalink]

    WP #14 said:

    "For faith-based people, everything is faith-based…"

    That’s why they are all (NOT!) joining the Armed Forces, or sending their children off to Iraq (NOT!), secure in the knowledge that their prayers will protect them! Kevlar? Who needs it!

    Lest I come across as a heathen liberal pagan whatever, I do myself have some faith in the power of prayer, BUT…

    When I was young, I prayed for a blue bicycle, feeling guilty(*) at the same time for not spending my time praying for something more spiritual, like an end to poverty in Africa. When I finally got the blue bicycle (OK so I supplemented my prayers with some demands to my parents!) it had a broken wheel, so I couldn’t ride it. My Dad took it to the bike shop for repairs, but for one reason of another (lack of cash, I think) the bike never came back home. I took it as a lesson: God doesn’t care about prayers like that. Be careful what you wish for – and be careful what you pray for!

    I was eight years old when Iearned that lesson – how old are the Bush voters?

    This little personal anecdote links up with that John Hatch piece I linked to earlier:

    I believed the nuns when they told me that only Catholics could go to heaven. My father was a Protestant. Tough luck, Dad, see you later! That’s what you get for being a Baptist, or whatever. But I was only six. When I was a man, I still believed in America. Stupid, but there you go!

    * – Catholic upbringing: guilt is a big part of it!

  17. 22)
    jIM cIRILE said on 7/12/2005 @ 7:05pm PT: [Permalink]

    Gandhi, do you think that in light of first the DSM coming to light, and now Plamegate, the press might be finally starting to find its nads? The questions leveled by the Washington Press Corps at Scottie McLyin’ literally made me cheer! And if so… if this all this scandal does begin to unravel the emperor’s clothes finally… do you think some of them will be emboldened to write/ask about the stolen election and (gasp) the truth about 9-11?

    I realize it’s silly to speculate, but I just want to see if you have any sort of idea of what’s going on in the average MSM reporter/editor mindset. One hopes there have to be some good newspaper editors out finally ready to risk the wrath of Cheney and Rove (and firing by their corporate masters) by speaking out–IF they perceived the administration is critically wounded…

  18. 23)
    Arry said on 7/12/2005 @ 7:13pm PT: [Permalink]

    #13 — Gandhi — I certainly was referring to the U.S.

    "A real end-of-empire scenario, which is ironic because this is supposed to be the START of the Empire, isn’t it?" — There is some humor in this farce.

    Another group of people we have to consider — and it may be quite a large group – are those who have no great psychic investment in the the bushites but who think you fight for your country, you defend your property, and so on. Ignorance rules, but they may not be dumb people. I meet a lot of these people and many of them are getting fed up with bush.

    Many of my relatives are ranchers. At a reunion, a couple of them pulled me aside "We have to talk", bought me some beer and we had a long talk. I can tell you that although they probably voted for bush, they are not about to give up their freedoms (a la "PATRIOT" Act) without a fight. (They are Montanans, by the way. Montana recently passed a tough pro-Constitution, anti "PATRIOT" Act resolution.)

    We also discovered that most of our "disagreements" weren’t really disagreements at all. We had been talking in different terms. The main thing that came out of it that impressed me was their attitude of, "We are willing to listen to you. We are having our doubts, too. We just don’t like people to be so sure of themselves that they are not willing to listen to *us*". That was a very big thing to them. It was an enlightening experience for me, and I certainly learned a few things.

    These people are not religious fanatics. They do believe in strong families and hard work and many of the traditional values. (And they don’t like big corporations much more than I do.)

    I’m just going the long way around to get to the point that there may be a part of the population that we tend not to see in our analyses.

    (This would also tend to vitiate, to some extent, my previous two sides argument.)

  19. 24)
    Winter Patriot said on 7/12/2005 @ 7:27pm PT: [Permalink]

    Very interesting discussion here … Quoting Gandhi from #20:

    WP #14 said:

    "For faith-based people, everything is faith-based…"

    That’s why they are all (NOT!) joining the Armed Forces, or sending their children off to Iraq (NOT!), secure in the knowledge that their prayers will protect them! Kevlar? Who needs it!

    Hard to tell whether I’m being misinterpreted or not … I don’t mean to imply that all faith-based people are ready to feed their kids to the war machine or anything like that … and in fact there are many faith-based people who have no faith in bush … what I did mean was that people tend to be either faith-based or reality-based … if you’re faith-based then your faith trumps all objective reality … or at least that’s how it is for all the faith-based people I know … and I live with a bunch of ’em.

    Your experience may differ and if so I would certainly like to read about it.

  20. 25)
    gandhi said on 7/12/2005 @ 7:39pm PT: [Permalink]

    JC #22:

    I just want to see if you have any sort of idea of what’s going on in the average MSM reporter/editor mindset….

    Can’t claim to be much of a mind-reader, although I have done freelance journo work and very nearly became a cadet at Reuters…

    One thing that has always puzzled me is why Ruport Murdoch et al haven’t decided to spill the beans on all the shenanigans – they would sure boost their flagging sales in a hurry if they did!

    Maybe Murdoch et al are too personally implicated, or is is just the carrot on the end of the free-press-expansion-rules stick that keeps them hanging on?

    As for reporters, you can waste a lot of time and even lose your job by writing stories which have zero chance of publication (e.g. "BUSH IS A LYING FASCIST"). And editors lose their jobs even faster if they ignore the CEOs…

    I think it is all a question of balance, and how many facts can be ignored or suppressed before US public opinion turns against Bush & Co once and for all. When that happens, I don’t think there will be any turning back, and there could be no end of scandals coming out in the wash… Let’s hope the cleanup will be more rigorous than the Church Commission that left people like Cheney and Rumsfeld still operating, but most importantly right now let’s stay busy to help make it happen, eh?!

    The Rove-Plame story is one that simply cannot be ignored, even if it is a bit hard to explain in a 30 sec TV grab.

    This has given wannabe Bob Woodwards a bit of a sugar hit. As Jon Stewart said today: "We have secretly replaced the White House press corps with actual reporters."

    😛

  21. 26)
    jIM cIRILE said on 7/12/2005 @ 7:47pm PT: [Permalink]

    >>Jon Stewart said today: "We have secretly replaced the White House press corps with actual reporters."

    bWAH HA HA HA! gO, JON STEWART! (EVEN THOUGH HAL JORDAN IS STILL MY FAVORITE GREEN LANTERN.)

  22. 27)
    gandhi said on 7/12/2005 @ 7:53pm PT: [Permalink]

    Arry #23:

    We also discovered that most of our "disagreements" weren’t really disagreements at all…

    I am really glad to hear a positive story like that, and it reinforces what I said earlier about the need to understand those who support Bush. As you say, these are not all greedy, dumb or wilfully obtuse people – but LAWD ONLY KNOWS it’s hard to change their minds, innit???!

    Part of the reason my blog is not very well known is probably that I don’t hang out much on left-wing sites – I prefer to post at the right-wing blogs, because these are the people whose views (and votes) we need to change!

  23. 28)
    Peg C said on 7/12/2005 @ 7:56pm PT: [Permalink]

    Ghandi #13 –

    "Two kinds of people" indeed. Very quickly, before I go to bed for good, I’ll mention that ongoing speciation was a conviction of mine in the mid-seventies, based upon perceived divergences of patterns of thought, ways of making ideational connections. An essay is forthcoming, but that’s the premise – and it came to me as a revelation just after Nixon’s resignation and the first big oil crisis.

    Some humans value life as a miraculous opportunity to become more alive. Others esteem it only as time spent, preferably in improving their material lot to the maximum "devil take the hindmost."

  24. 29)
    gandhi said on 7/12/2005 @ 8:07pm PT: [Permalink]

    WP #24:

    Hard to tell whether I’m being misinterpreted or not …

    Not at all, WP, I am sure we are on the same page, mate. My comment wasn’t meant to sound sarcastic, which perhaps it did.

    people tend to be either faith-based or reality-based…

    But even those who are vigorously faith-based still have to get out of bed every day and deal with the discomforting buffering of reality (which is what I was trying to say). And faith in Jesus does not have to equate to faith in Bush & Co – that’s just the current fashion in US evangelism, but fashions can change…

    There is a whole lot that can be said along these religious-versus-non lines. I gotta break away for an hour or two, but I will respond to any comments as soon as I can…

  25. 30)
    gandhi said on 7/13/2005 @ 10:48pm PT: [Permalink]

    Hey, when I talked about "getting out of bed every day and dealing with the discomforting buffering of reality" that wasn’t a cue for y’all to go to sleep!

    🙂

    Anyway, it’s been a pleasure guest-blogging today/tonight and if anyone has additional comments I will check back and respond as and when…

    PS: Brad Blog rocks!

    😎

  26. 31)
    Winter Patriot said on 7/13/2005 @ 10:49pm PT: [Permalink]

    I have to get running too, but thanks again for all your contributions here, Gandhi. This is a fabulous thread so far and I wouldn’t be surprised to see more comments on it in the next day or two. Cheers, mate, and thanks again!

  27. 32)
    Robert Lockwood Mills said on 7/13/2005 @ 4:46am PT: [Permalink]

    Talk about getting back to reality. It just came over that Moyer, the judge in Ohio who helped Blackwell queer the election recount, has now disqualified every Democratic judge from hearing the corruption case involving Noe and his buddies. He says he wants to avoid all suspicion of partisanship.

    Ha ha. This is analagous to Judge Sirica being disqualified in the Watergate case in favor of John Mitchell.

    Good news…it’s so blatant that the Toledo Blade should have a field day with it. Bad news…the Cleveland Plain-Dealer has apparently been compromised by threats of retaliation, and has pulled two stories of "major importance" out of fear of being sued, so they might lay low.

  28. 33)
    Richard McGinn said on 7/13/2005 @ 5:46am PT: [Permalink]

    Gandhi and commenters,

    I have enjoyed your blog, and the comments, immensely. Gandhi, I am amazed at the profoundity of your analysis of the neocon agenda. You have given us some extremely valuable insights. I do disagree, however, with the neocon’s suggestion that they (neocons) are faith-based whereas liberals are reality-based. As a liberal, I have puzzled over the fact that, although I have political opinions, I have personally borne direct witness to practically nothing of what I believe. I often feel that "all is illusion" or, as Will Rogers put it, "Everything I know is what I read in the newspapers". It is chilling to realize this. The conclusion I draw is that, politically, everyone is faith-based to about the same degree; the difference comes down to (a) who or what you believe in, and (b) who you are rooting for. Reason serves as footman to these two purposes. If you believe in The Rapture and you rooted for George W. Bush, you feel good because your Bible confirms your belief and your team won the last election (or so the country seems to think). If you believe in Global Warming and Rep. John Conyers (my hero), you are equally passionate about quoting supporting evidence and trying to win the next election. Reality? Who has time to verify any of it? We mostly have to place our trust in others to verify, confirm, ferret out the facts, and so on. Our job, as voters, is to decide what part of "what we read in the newspapers" is credible. Democracy depends on collective intuitions getting "reality" right — in the sense of restoring some balance — in successive election cycles.
    What is so important about your article is that it lays out some compelling new reasons to believe that this Republic is seriously threatened by the neocon agenda.

  29. 34)
    gandhi said on 7/13/2005 @ 11:37am PT: [Permalink]

    R McG #33:

    The conclusion I draw is that, politically, everyone is faith-based to about the same degree; the difference comes down to (a) who or what you believe in, and (b) who you are rooting for. Reason serves as footman to these two purposes…

    I hear what you are saying, but I think I sense a degree of frustration creeping in…?

    Sure, our perspective on things influences how we see reality. But let’s go back to the car-crash analogy in my original post – we all have differing subjective viewpoints of the same objective reality. What I’m saying is that we should agree that such an Objective Reality exists, and we should all work to pursue it as a common, binding basis of fact.

    Given the FACTS, people can form their own opinions. At the moment they are not even getting the facts, or worse yet they are getting complete lies.

    Our job, as voters, is to decide what part of "what we read in the newspapers" is credible…

    I think we have to do more than that when confronted with BushWorld. We have to actively attack the lies and expose a version of Objective Reality that even the GOP hacks must agree on.

    For example, look at how Josh Marshall is ripping the Rove-Plame lies to shreds, one after another. He did the same with the Social Security "crisis".

    … this Republic is seriously threatened by the neocon agenda.

    Damn straight it is!

    NB: I am not trying to be argumentative here, just constructive!

  30. 35)
    gandhi said on 7/13/2005 @ 12:31pm PT: [Permalink]

    RLM #32:

    Sounds like a perfect example of what we are talking about…

    If we respond by doing nothing and saying nothing, the Bush-GOP version of reality becomes the de-fact norm.

  31. 36)
    Richard McGinn said on 7/14/2005 @ 2:15am PT: [Permalink]

    Response to Gandhi #34

    I hear what you are saying, but I think I sense a degree of frustration creeping in…?

    I may be showing frustration, but really, my focus is on the swing-voters. Why do they believe the Republican spin? Some very close friends are conservatives, and by that I mean when they think about politics (which is not often) they root for Bush and wince when his agenda is attacked because basically they want to believe that the world is a good place but it is marred by a few bad eggs (terrorists and liberals a la the subtitle of Hannity’s "bestseller"–I wonder how many copies Rupert Murdoch bought?) who want to destroy it. They know Rush and Hannity tend to exaggerate, and oh yes maybe bend the truth a little bit–but so do the democrats. But my friends listen to Rush and Hannity for exactly the same reasons I read The Brad Blog–they are looking for arguments to support their "cause"– which by the way seems to be winning, which affirms their belief in God and country and apple pie. It is very hard to dissuade them with arguments, for the reasons I gave in my first posting: they argue based on what they believe and who they are rooting for, and I do the same.
    This idea was in response to your excellent "reality" blog. Let me now add: What our side needs right now is for their side to lose big in court. This is happening now with the Rove-Plame case; let’s hope this one ends badly for the administration. Add the DS memos and the Ohio election fraud case. The lawless behavior of this administration must be held to account in the congress and in the courts. Only when things go badly for the Republicans "on the ground" will my good friends be impressed.

  32. 37)
    gandhi said on 7/14/2005 @ 2:10pm PT: [Permalink]

    Rush and Hannity tend to exaggerate, and oh yes maybe bend the truth a little bit–but so do the democrats..

    True. Unfortunately, most people these days are basically disgusted with politics and politicians, and so they expect little more than lies and self-interested games. The truth itself has become a political football. The Democrats are guilty of this too, of course.

    I can’t even TALK politics with most people I know – their eyes glaze over and they just switch off… Who’s right, who’s wrong – who’s got time for it?

    The neocons once speculated (in the PNAC docs) that it would take a massive tragedy like 9/11 to create enough public support for their ambitous Empire-building agenda. Perhaps a real shift in public attitudes towards politics will also require a massive scandal – like the collapse of the entire Bush administration, a lost war in Iraq and then ongoing revelations about how all this could have happened? Perhaps that would be enough for people to demand more from their elected representatives, and to take more than a passing interest in politics?

    For me, this is part of a broader social issue, and Bush is very much a product of modern USA society. For example, it’s commonly accepted today that "Business is Business" and people nowadays seem quite prepared do something immoral for personal gain, provided it is not actually illegal.Greed is good, etc… But that’s probably another thread!?

    Only when things go badly for the Republicans "on the ground" will my good friends be impressed.

    Too true. A hit on Rove will have enormouse repercussions, particularly if it comes with the imprimatur of Bush’s own Supreme Court reps. As Sidney Blumenthal says: "Rove may succeed momentarily in quelling the storm. But the stillness may be illusory. Before the prosecutor, Rove’s arsenal is useless."

    Public opinion sometimes seems to have a mysterious force of its own. Its like watching a school of fish change directions, or a herd of animals stampeding…

    Bush is already below 50% popularity. Maybe the perfect wave is building…?

  33. 39)
    Richard McGinn said on 7/15/2005 @ 2:01am PT: [Permalink]

    #37 and #38

    "Before the prosecutor, Rove’s arsenal is useless."

    That says it all. Rove has met the Peter Principle. In court, unlike in the world of politics, he wll prove to be quite incompetent, like a basketball star forced to play hockey.

  34. 40)
    gandhi said on 7/18/2005 @ 9:55am PT: [Permalink]

    An interesting follow-up from the Sydney Morning Herald today, explaining to us foreigners why (for example) Cheney is still VP:

    "A former senior official in the Clinton Pentagon, Kurt Campbell, cautions that many people inside the Administration do not perceive reality in the same way as most people on the outside.

    "A lot of people who support the President are really not interested in the facts on the ground," Campbell says. "There really is a faith-based belief in the President as a person and in his ability to remake reality."

    From the same paper:

    "The US military-industrial complex can virtually tell Congress and the White House who to fight, where and with what. An American who had been in Canberra explained to me recently that the Pentagon and his company, Boeing, were jointly planning not only future weapons but the wars to use them in. He didn’t seem to have any ideological issues, as we say these days, with that…"

  35. 41)
    gandhi said on 7/18/2005 @ 10:17am PT: [Permalink]

    … or this from Kos today, nicely capturing the duality of this absurd "reality"…

    No Republican’s action is worthy of scorn or censure. They are perfect. Flawless. Immune to error. Godlike.

    How someone could be reduced to that level is beyond me…

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