AP: Suspect used .223 caliber rifle. This is a picture of a .223 rifle. This is legal. #NRA #PrayForNewtown twitter.com/MarlowNYC/stat…
— Marlow Stern (@MarlowNYC) December 14, 2012
Despite the horror of a second mass shooting playing out during the holiday season this week, White House Press Secretary Jay Carney says “today is not [the] day” to discuss gun laws. So it is, undoubtedly, a very Merry Christmas for the terrorist-enabling NRA and their cowardly supporters.
UPDATE 12:14pm PT: According to AP, at this hour, there are 27 dead at the school shooting in Newtown, Connecticut, including 18 children, most of them kindergarteners, making this the second deadliest shooting in U.S. history. Which means, according to BuzzFeed’s Andrew Kaczynski, that “of the 12 deadliest shooting attacks in US history, six have occurred since 2007.”
In other words, the six of the most deadly shootings in our history all happened in the years since the NRA was so successful in assuring the Reagan-era assault-weapons ban was ended and other gun laws were loosened and struck down entirely across the country.
As of this week, all 50 states now allow concealed guns to be carried. But, according to the terrorist-enabling NRA and its cowardly supporters, the solution is for still more people to carry guns (the Republican MI legislature approved a new law allowing guns in schools just last night) so we all keep getting safer and safer. Right?
The NRA plan to make America safer: Everyone get a gun. Wait for someone in bullet-proof armor to use a semi-automatic assualt rifle to shoot 60 people in a crowd in 90 seconds or so. Someone try to shoot them. That plan is perfect! No downsides at all.
UPDATE 12:21pm PT: President Obama just spoke in the Brady Press Room, named for Ronald Reagan’s Press Secretary James Brady, who was shot in the head during the assassination attempt on Reagan, and the man for whom the now expired assault weapons ban, supported by Reagan and signed by George H.W. Bush, was named.
In terse remarks, while fighting back tears, the President said: “We’ve endured too many of these tragedies these past few years…We are going to have to come together and take meaningful action to prevent tragedies like this, regardless of the politics.”
He offered no suggestions, at this time, for that “meaningful action”.
UPDATE 1:20pm PT: Number of children said killed, among the 27 shot by suspect, increased to 20.
Also, Democratic strategist Julian Epstein on MSNBC says 30 people are killed by guns every day in the U.S. 11,000 per year. “The equivalent of a jumbo jet going down every week in this country.”
UPDATE 3:27pm PT: According to NBC News: “Weapons used in shooting were legally purchased and registered to gunman’s mother, law enforcement officials tell NBC News “. Thanks for the great work, NRA con-men!
UPDATE 3:40pm PT: Fox “News” confirms weapons used were legally purchased and registered by shooter’s mother (who was also killed). They (and CNN) report one weapon was a .223 caliber semi-automatic rifle made by Bushmaster. Here’s the Bushmaster 2012 catalog. Note the bottom of their website includes two different links to the NRA.
Apparently, you can buy one over the Internet today. It comes standard with 30-round magazine capacity. 27 were killed in CT today.
Here’s a video of a .223 Bushmaster AR-15, similar to the one reportedly used in the killing of 27 in CT today, firing at 100 yards…
UPDATE 9:51pm PT: There seems to be quiet a bit of confusion, and conflicting information, about the type of weapons used in the mass shooting today. So let’s try to clear that up a bit, with what we’re able to learn at this hour…
Reports from CBS, from AP, from USA Today and from CNN all seem to concur that law enforcement officials say a Glock and a Sig Sauer pistol were recovered with the body of the shooter, and the Bushmaster .223-caliber (seen above) was found in his car.
The reports on the types of Glock and Sig Sauer used are not as clear. I’m no gun aficionado, and welcome correction here, but while Glocks appear to be pistols only, there are conversions kits available to make them into something more like high capacity rifles. High-capacity magazines, in any event, are available for the semi-automatic pistols made by both companies. Sig Sauer, for their part, makes both pistols and rifles, including .223-caliber semi-automatics. (Here’s video of one being fired.)
Moreover, CBS reports that additional rifles were recovered, including “a Henry repeating rifle, an Enfield rifle and a shotgun,” as does AP, though in both cases, they report “it was not clear exactly where those weapons were found.”
Adding to the confusion, CBS reports that “A law enforcement source told CBS News’ Pat Milton that casings (spent shells) from a .223 semi automatic rifle were found inside the school.”
Business Insider, however, cuts to the main concern we have here, as it applies to the sleazy efforts that the NRA, and the arms trade manufacturers they represent, have made to ensure the Brady Bill — which put limits on the size of high-capacity magazines — would not be renewed after it expired in 2004, and that any discussion of anything like it would simply not be tolerated in Congress (emphasis in original):
Magazines for these weapons are generally controlled at 15 rounds, but 100-round drums can be found on the web
Yes, you have to have it shipped to an Federally Firearm Licensed dealer, BUT, are incredibly difficult to prosecute. You can also go to several gunshows where there is little, if any, oversight on purchases.
As with the mass shooting at the Clackamas mall in Portland, Oregon earlier this week, it may be that law enforcement is being somewhat vague about the exact weapons used to help preserve the integrity of the investigation. In any case, the fact that it was so easy for a 20-year old to fire off 100 rounds in a matter of minutes, as is being reported at this hour, and that lawmakers seem impotent to do a damned thing about it, continues to be a national disgrace.
UPDATE 12/14/12, 9:45am PT: Okay, still more new information about more guns used in the shootings. CBS News is now reporting this morning:
There was also a fourth weapon (a long gun) found in the car he drove to the school.
In addition, the source told CBS News there were “a few” other weapons found at the mother’s house. The registry of the weapon in the car and at the house are still be checked. The tracing of all the weapons – such as where and when they were purchased – is still being conducted
.
That latest CBS report also cites the AP report earlier that “a Henry repeating rifle, an Enfield rifle and a shotgun were recovered” and that “It was not clear exactly where those weapons were found.”
If CBS’s latest report is accurate, that would explain their earlier report, as noted in my 9:51pm PT UPDATE above, that “casings (spent shells) from a .223 semi automatic rifle were found inside the school.”
UPDATE 12/16/12 1:51pm PT: Just to put a final period on this particular question for now, here is further confirmation that the killer used a Bushmaster semi-automatic assault rifle in the mass shootings at Newton, CT, killing 20 children and 6 adults at the Sandy Hook Elementary School in a “spree that lasted minutes”…
The state’s chief medical examiner, H. Wayne Carver II, said all of the 20 children and 6 adults gunned down at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn., had been struck more than once in the fusillade.
He said their wounds were “all over, all over.â€
…
Dr. Carver said it appeared that all of the children had been killed by a “long rifle†that Mr. Lanza was carrying; a .223 Bushmaster semiautomatic rifle was one of the several weapons police found in the school. The other guns were semiautomatic pistols, including a 10-millimeter Glock and a 9-millimeter Sig Sauer.
And further confirmation from today’s Washington Post…
…
“I’ve been at this for a third of a century. And my sensibilities may not be the average man’s. But this probably is the worst I have seen,†said H. Wayne Carver II. Carver described the children’s injuries, which he said ranged from at least two to 11 bullet wounds apiece.
…
Lanza was carrying at least three guns from a collection maintained by his mother, who friends said enjoyed target shooting. Lanza had two pistols, a Glock and a Sig Sauer.
But he apparently chose a larger weapon, a .223-caliber Bushmaster rifle, for much of the killing. This rifle fires one bullet for every pull of the trigger, and the unusually high speed of its round was designed to produce significant internal damage. Authorities said Lanza fired dozens and dozens of times in a spree that lasted minutes.
“All the wounds that I know of at this point were caused by the long weapon,†said Carver, the medical examiner.
He said he saw multiple wounds on the bodies of those he examined, and based on his conversations with colleagues, “I believe everybody was hit more than once.â€
http://www.naturalnews.com/038352_school_shooting_lone_gunman_media_cover-up.html
Ironically, listening to the radio just the other day, gun laws were being discussed and then this happens. A gentleman called in and expressed his interest in purchasing a gun and carrying it on him like some that did the same in the south. His reasoning was that if all people carried guns, no one would step out of line. Yikes!
I don’t live in the U.S., so I don’t have the same advocacy for gun laws and do not mean to offend, but I just don’t get it…
I’m sure, Brad, that if you contacted the NRA, as you’ve done in the past, they’ll say that now is not the time to discuss gun control.
If not now, when?
People kill, not guns. Guns are a tool. Problem is you ban this tool they will find a different tool to use. Such as a bomb, or railgun. Bomb are easy to make, and so is a railgun. We need to find away to id an help the people doing this before they do it, not just push them through the system. BUT Please keep the families of this in your thoughts.
“Me” — Thanks for the strawman argument! No doubt, the terrorist-enabling NRA who has played you for a sucker much appreciates it!
Your argument against “ban[ning]” guns (that nobody has made here) is helpful in “id[ing]” you as an easily conned stooge of the NRA.
Yes, guns, like cars, power saws, toasters, Sudafed, are all tools. We have safety regulations for the purchase and use of those tools.
So, are you saying you are against all safety regulations for the purchase and use of guns, cars, power saws, toasters and Sudafed? (Even though the 2nd Amendment calls for the “regulation” of the right to bear arms? If so, why are you against the 2nd Amendment?)
Turn off outside holiday lights untill dec 24 to protest automatic weapons. Ours are already off.
That–guns don’t kill people, people kill people–is one of the weirdest, stupidest, most unfathomable bits of self-delusion ever. How many guns have killed anybody without a person using it? At the least you’d have to say that the gun sure as fuck helped. Try killing someone with a broom.(don’t really)
When a tool is made with for express purpose of being able to end life, to say that it has nothing to do with the ending of lives when it is used for that express purpose is unconscionable.
Senseless and tragic, how anyone can attack children is beyond me. We do need to regulate guns much more stricter than we do.
Having said that I would be interested to hear Brads explanation for how “me’s” comment is a strawman argument. Today, a man in China (where guns are strictly regulated and personal ownership is almost non-existant) a man slashed 20 kids at a local school with a knife. He’s comment was quite relevant to this piece.
So, while i believe in very strict gun laws personally, I also believe ignoring the root cause of these horrible attacks on innocent people to the point of dismissing points such as me made as a strawman is simplistic minded crap. Ask the people at the community college in Wyoming if seeking answers is a “strawman “.
Let’s not forget who has been advocating for relaxed gun laws and frontier justice:
1. ALEC, aka, the Koch brothers, who own the republicon party. ALEC funded and partially wrote the “stand your ground” laws in states.
2. Walmart, the biggest seller of guns in the United States. Walmart worked with ALEC to relax gun laws for the express purposes of selling more guns and escaping liability for killings and injuries.
3. The Discovery Channel, for broadcasting TV shows that glorify assault weapons and all guns.
4. The likes of Glenn Beck, for broadcasting nationwide messages that Obama was going to take away Americans’ guns, and that Americans should stock up on ammo and guns.
5. The NRA lobby, which tongues the asses of everyone and everything mentioned above.
6. Various assholes here and elsewhere who vomit the same tired arguments that the NRA, Glenn Beck, and all the other right-wing psychopaths feed them…why don’t you people just do us all a favor, stick your guns up your asses, and pull the triggers?
This is not an endorsement of Automatic Weapons or the NRA or anything against meaningful gun control (as well as a return to consideration of Mental Health as a state priority)…
But…
From what I’ve heard, the automatic weapon was found in the car outside and didn’t get used. Reportedly it was two multi-round handguns.
Just want you to stay accurate Brad, cause that’s what I love about you.
WingnutSteve @ 8 said:
Refreshing to hear you say that.
Because, as I said in my response to him/her, nobody here has called for a “ban” on guns. That’s the first response from every knee jerk NRA stooge. “You want to take away my guns!” No, I don’t. So the argument is a strawman.
Um, seems you forgot to mention an important part of that China story. ZERO of the children died.
So, if the parents in CT today had a choice between their children being stabbed or shot, which one do you think they would choose? For that matter, which one would YOU choose for YOUR children?
And…there’s another strawman. Good job! Who is “ignoring the root cause of these horrible attacks on innocent people”?
When will people begin to focus on the real issues of society? The old adage, “Guns don’t kill people; people kill people”, remains true. Check your history….before guns there were rocks, clubs, bows/arrows, knives/swords etc. People were slaughtered by the thousands with such primitive weapons. The “tool of the trade” is not the issue, it’s people; disturbed people. There’s another old adage which also holds true, “If guns are outlawed, then only outlaws will have guns.” Put a loaded gun in your living room and stare at it. It cannot do you or anyone else any harm until a person uses it for such a purpose. It’s a piece of metal, albeit more efficient and has greater range than say, a sword. Still, it requires a disturbed person to use it for killing other people. Gun laws only have an impact on law abiding citizens. These laws never have, nor ever will have any impact on criminals as they don’t care about law and order. In today’s world, guns are readily available everywhere – no law can stop this. And, if a law could, a criminal would resort to some other type of weapon. This is not rocket science people – it is human nature and it is naive to think otherwise.
The suggestion by “ME” and Don Sheppard that gun control would make no difference fails to withstand objective comparisons.
The murder rate in London, where there is strict gun control, is 1.8 per 100,000 inhabitants.
The murder rate in Chicago is 19.4 per 100,000 which is more than Moscow and Mexico City combined.
When I see such mindless mumbling as that offered by “Me†and Sheppard in response to this horrific event, I can’t help but think of Bob Dylan’s Blowin’ in the Wind:
That too many people have died?
The answer my friend is blowin’ in the wind
The answer is blowin’ in the wind.
Charlie # 10 I agree strongly. “Gun control as well as a return to consideration of Mental Health as a state priority.”
I cry for you today USA.
Response from the Gun Nut Fuc@ers or aka NRA…
“I think we’re seeing the results of a failure to enact reasonable restrictions [on violent video games, movies] at age levels, at the very least.”
http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2012/12/14/members-of-the-local-nra-respond-to-todays-elementary-school-shooting
Don Sheppard said @ 12:
Actually, had the CT shooter’s law abiding mom not have been able to legally purchase the high-capacity magazines reportedly used today, she and about 27 others might have still been alive. But let’s not let facts get in our way of debunked old favorite NRA saws.
Wonder if it would have made it harder for Adam Lanza to get mad at his mom, pick up her guns and kill her and 27 others today. Nah. Having three different semi-automatic weapons in the house and tons of ammo probably didn’t make it easier for Lanza at all, right?
You mean like the guy who stabbed 20 kids with a knife at a school in China today? Where none of them died?
Thanks again for the strawmen!
Charlie L @ 10:
Finding a lot of conflicting reports on that. Trying to sort it out, and will update when I can. (Unfortunately, have to run out and eat first meal at moment, but back soon, and will try to clear it up then! Always appreciate tips/corrections, Charlie L! Never a problem!)
Mental Illness and Assault Weapon Ownership are at an all time high. These weapons are sold for two reasons 1) To kill lots of people 2) For lots of Profit. Australia banned them and bought back existing assault weapons and their Mass Murder Rate declined 60%. We can do this.
#12 The NRA folks are all over the blogs with their “debunked old favorite NRA saws” as Brad said.
Questions for the “must have my guns” NRA people
Should the guns have been under lock and key?
The ammunition, at least here in Canada, must be kept from the gun, is that not the case in the US?
Should a home with an autistic person in it be allowed to have guns?
Why would a mom require three guns?
Are you getting paid to spout your speel all over the web?
Ammunition must not be stored “with the gun”, is what I meant.
The point has been made, here and elswhere, that the AR15 and variants are “assault weapons” that have only one purpose. That purpose being to kill large numbers of people rapidly. If we accept that to be the truth (and I don’t), why do we allow our police to have them in their patrol cars? Our police officers used to be responsible for investigating crimes and arresting suspects. When did their job come to include mass killing?
Or could it be that the AR15 can be and is used for may of the same things that more politically correct rifles are used for? Have you watched any of the current TV shows about hunting feral hogs? If so you likely saw an AR15 being used to hunt. Have you ever been to a top tier rifle match? if so you may have noticed that the most common rifle used for marksmanship competition in America today is an AR15.
DDS @ 20–
According to wikipedia the AR15 was originally built for the U.S. Armed Forces. Do you think the military wanted them for hunting feral hogs and marksmanship competitions?
Gotta a bridge here…
While wingnutsteve @ 8 is typically wide of the mark and throwing out some weird nonsense, I do agree that we need to look at root causes.
Our lack of gun control laws is part of it. I would offer that our imperial mindset, over-arching feelings of exceptionalism, predatory capitalism, meager social safety net, incarceration and torture policies, lack of universal health care, disconnect from the natural world, consumerist obsessions, sycophantic media, fear-based politics, etc., all contribute to create a culture with individuals so alienated, pained, angry, and sociopathic that the number of these sorts of tragedies in the U.S far, far exceeds those of any other place on earth.
To get serious about cause and effect here would require a social/cultural/economic revolution.
David #22
I am thankful for the bradblog for it is a place where I can come to find the truth. I have put David’s root causes in bullet form for impact.
These are the root causes:
-imperial mindset
-over-arching feelings of exceptionalism
-predatory capitalism, meager social safety net -incarceration and torture policies
-lack of universal health care
-disconnect from the natural world
-consumerist obsessions
-sycophantic media
-fear-based politics
I am disappointed, but not surprised, that you left out:
-lack of fear of God
-lack of spirituality
over 100 people are KILLED every day in a car accident, are those lives less worthy of media attention? why dont we consider a vehicle ban? we dont need cars as much as we dont need guns so what say you o bleeding heart? there are by far more children mamed or killed by drunken drivers than by firearms but i have never seen cars restricted by any means kids are driving at 16. give me an educated answer to that.
hang on let me print out my ak47 pop off a few rounds ,, yep works .. if i wanted a weapon i can get one .. point is we dont need gun control we need to teach weapon responsibility in the class room before drivers ed .. lets look at the swiss ..
I see the NRA’s suckers are turning out in force today. I’ll respond to that shortly, but just noting here that there is ANOTHER UPDATE on the weapons used at the shooting. New report says the Bushmaster semi-automatic rifle was, indeed, used inside the school, and the rifle found in the shooter’s car was a different rifle.
See the 9:45am PT UPDATE above.
noneya, your inability to appreciate a difference between automobile (or other) accidents and murder with legal military-grade weaponry is breath-taking and scary.
Be aware that if you post again, you are wilfully insulting the memory of dead kids who were only attending school, and dead elders who were trying to teach them.
Isn’t it more vital for you to get an “educated answer” for your moronic stupidity?
Noneya @ 24 spouted:
I say, thanks for the comparison! Yes, many people are killed every day in car accidents, which is why we have extraordinary safety regulations on their manufacturing, their purchase and their use.
For example, once we implemented safety belt requirements, the number of annual deaths fell precipitously. We have many other safety requirements for such vehicles. We also require tests, both written and practical, before licenses are issued to drive and have many laws strictly prohibiting the use of the vehicles under the influence of alcohol and other drugs.
Does is stop every death in or by an automobile? Of course not. Have the rules and regulations greatly reduced the numbers of deaths and injury? Of course.
That said, thanks for the strawman false equivalence, about “consider[ing] a vehicle ban”, since the discussion is not about banning guns. You’ve done the NRA con-men proud with that one!
Can’t believe you’re seriously asking that. That’s like saying “keep your government hands of my medicare!” The use of cars are severely restricted, regulated and monitored. That 16 year old kid is not allowed a license to drive until he/she passes both written and driving tests, as noted above. All car owners are required to purchase insurance, are required to respect very strict laws and regulations for their use (speed limits, red lights, no operation while impaired by drugs and alcohol, etc.)
What sort of bubble are you living in, amigo. First day here in the United States of America???
Got any other incredible dumb, self-debunking points to make?
Mike @ 25 said:
Right. And you’re point is?
Ah, I see. So you’re in favor of serious written and practical testing before anybody is allowed to have a license to carry a gun? You’re in favor of requirements on owners to purchase insurance for them and as many regulations on their use as we put on drivers then? Just as required by drivers ed classes in high school?
Lemme know!
As to “the Swiss”, yes, let’s “look” to them, and this report at Washington Post about exactly that yesterday, which busts some of the myths you are hoping to forward here.
In Switzerland, gun ownership is very low, and the country requires that you have a reason tyo have a gun. You have no “right” to have one there and you must go back to the permitting authority every six months to assure them your reason for having one is still valid.
Moreover, guns are held in depots, not in households.
See WaPo’s “Mythbusting: Israel and Switzerland are not gun-toting utopias” and this report from the School of Publish Health at the State University of New York for more details to help clear up your misperceptions. You’re welcome!
And thanks for giving me the chance to speak to that particular piece of Rightwing NRA propaganda horseshit!
Absolutely meaningless crap again coming from the mouth of the world’s #1 terrorist, a man directly responsible for the deaths of thousands of innocents, about 50% children. This short item says most of what must be said about this event, the ones that came before it, and the ones that will certainly occur again, http://www.commondreams.org/view/2012/12/15-3
Brad, perhaps I misread me’s comment, but I didn’t take it as an accusation of the bradblog advocating a gun ban but a response to many different forums which highlighted such action in the aftermath of this tragedy. Highlighted maybe being the wrong word, propose is perhaps more fitting. Maybe your blog was the forum used to express that, just a thought.
Having said that, what do you advocate with regard to guns?
My point I originally tried to make was me’s comment about id’ing the behavior. Until we are able to do that as a society we will continue to apparently) watch these type of tragedy unfold on our tv’s.
Thankfully you are correct that no one died at the aforementioned school attack in Chine. But I don’t think it was from a lack of trying by the perpetrator. And it sends a message loud and clear that insane people will find a means to wreck their havoc, with or without guns.
Davey Crocket @23–
Unless I’m misreading you, it sounds like your giving me and the bradblog shit for some reason. Are you? I can not really tell. Maybe you’re being sincere?
As is your want, you also somewhat misrepresent what I said by implying I was offering my list as a complete, comprehensive one. I put the “etc” in there at the end of those contributing factors(which was just off the top of my head) to indicate that it was only a partial list. Did you not understand that? The commondreams article Karl Sanchez links to in #30 extends the list, as do you when you say “lack of spirituality”(although a lack of spirituality might have been inferred from some of the factors I mentioned). Unless, of course, that’s another smarmy tongue in cheek thing you’re doing. Again, not completely sure of your intent/tone.
“Fear of God”? No thanks. Those versions of religions that promote the kind of fear I’m afraid you’re talking about do not help the situation, in my opinion.
Less fear. More love. More understanding the interconnectedness of all beings/things. More harmony with the natural world. Less competition. More cooperation. Less lording it over everybody. More humility in all things. Less trying to solve the world’s problems militarily. More dealing with real causes and effects. A whole lot more of the Beatitudes. More we’re all in this together. Less paying lip service to the Declaration of Independence. More following through consistently by our actions that we believe we all(and that means all as in everybody in the world) are created equal with unalienable rights.
WingnutSteve @ 31:
Well, I’ve yet to see any serious call for out and out “bans”. On the other hand, I’ve spoken to a lot of people about this stuff, on a lot of radio shows, tweets, emails, etc. etc. over the years (in other words, not just after this shooting). And the fact is that any time such a discussion comes up, particularly about the con-job that the NRA has been so effectively running for so many years, the first response from RWers has been to charge that folks like me want to “ban guns”, that we are “gun grabbers”.
Nothing could be further from the truth. It’s a bullshit charge, based on exactly no evidence to make such a charge. But the NRA is very happy whenever anybody makes it on their behalf.
It’s lazy Right/Left, Red/Blue paradigm bullshit and the one thing that it succeeds in doing is making sure that a real discussion is not had about gun issues in this country. It assures that even policies vastly favored by members of the NRA cannot be discussed!
For example, while there are many common sense gun policies that are wildly favored by the public (see this chart just to get an idea), if you drill down even further, there are measures that are wildly favored by members of the NRA that the NRA won’t allow to be discussed in the halls of Congress!
This is from a poll taken by Frank Luntz last July (yes, rightwing Frank Luntz!). Look at some of these findings of what NRA members themselves believe in, if not the arms trade industry lackeys who run the NRA:
• 79 percent of NRA members and 80 percent of non-NRA gun owners support requiring gun retailers to perform background checks on all employees – a measure recently endorsed by the National Shooting Sports Foundation, the trade association for the firearms industry.
• 75 percent of NRA members believe concealed carry permits should only be granted to applicants who have not committed any violent misdemeanors, including assault.
• 74 percent of NRA members believe permits should only be granted to applicants who have completed gun safety training.
• 68 percent of NRA members believe permits should only be granted to applicants who do not have prior arrests for domestic violence.
• 63 percent of NRA members believe permits should only be granted to applicants 21 years of age or older.
• The NRA rank and file also supports barring people on terror watch lists from buying guns (71 percent) and believe the law should require gun owners to alert police to lost and stolen guns (64 percent). The NRA’s Washington office strongly opposes both measures.
Well, some of the above steps might be nice. But the fact is, that it doesn’t matter what I advocate. What I advocate most of all is democracy and allowing a civil discussion of these issues so we can find out what the public wants, and enact those policies. If we have a legitimate national discussion and find that the public wants to reverse the ban on automatic weapons (machine guns, etc.) that has been in place since the 30s, great! If that’s what they want, then fine. If the public thinks there is no reason to sell semi-automatic magazines with a capacity larger than 10 rounds, then great, let’s ban the sale of them, or tax the hell out of ’em.
I am against the lack of debate on these issues, thanks to a bunch of liars with a lot of money who run the NRA and stifle all such debate on behalf of the deadly arms trade industry, by threatening any politicians who dare broach the subject (and that’s where campaign finance reform comes into this very same mess.) That’s what we have right now, and it’s costing us a fortune in both blood and treasure.
I’m not sure I want to increase the surveillance state anymore than we already have in this country. I think we’ve had quite enough of the Intelligence Industrial Complex, but I have no problem talking about all of these things. There is no single solution. But to take almost all of the real solutions off the table — the most popular ones, in fact (see above) — is a perversion of what we used to proudly describe as “democracy”.
Right. And you know the other message it sends? Because that guy wasn’t easily able to get his hands on weapons that would have killed those 20 children in a matter of seconds, they are alive today. The ones in Connecticut are all plain dead. To use the China tragedy as an argument against common sense gun policy measures is idiocy. And yet, I’ve seen a whole bunch of idiots, including “me”, attempt to do exactly that over the past 24 hours or so.
Hope that helps clarify.
Look at the rules regarding smoking.
Not allowed to sell to 19 and under
Not allowed to smoke in car or home with children (Canada)You will be charged.
Not allowed to smoke near public places and soon that will include beaches, sports grounds, parks, and arenas…and some I am forgetting I am sure.
Not allowed to smoke in restaurant’s.
Why? Because second hand smoke is a danger to others.
October 31, 2008
655,000 Number US service men and women killed in all Foreign Wars combined
1,035,000 Number of gun deaths in the US over the past 30 years.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-rosenthal/us-gun-violence-by-the-nu_b_139879.html
(I myself wear a button that says “Stay back 25FT I am a smoker” 🙂
yes I know Im an idiot for making such a rediculous comparison because only death caused by those evil firearms should be protested. All others are just a fact of life we must learn to accept and live with. I didnt turn this in to an insensitive debate on gun rights i was simply commenting on a flat out attack on gun owners by lycan storm, which I as a responsible gun owner take personally. there is a reason for gun rights and there are very strict gun laws and permit and manufacturing specifications on safety just like vehicles. so here we are once again, my opinion remains and so does yours what have we acomplished, nothing.
my prayers for all the victims of this horrible crime have not stopped since i heard the news, prayers that im sure you and people like you think are rediculous and pointless but its what I believe in and obviously what the families and people in that town found comfort in as they filled the town churchs up. I take this murder very personally. That couldve been my children in that classroom but that doesnt change my views on firearms. Let me guess not only am I an idiot NRA Puppet but im also a no good Father right? Who do you think you are casting your judgement not only on me but on every person that chooses to exercise their constitutional rights. And the way people condemn the orginization that protects those rights makes me angry the way people stereotype gun owners makes me angry. you dont know me or whats in my heart. I am a law abiding citizen of the United States of America and have been all my life, I am a devoted father, a faithful husband, a son, a brother, an uncle, a hard worker, a tax payer, a contributor to society, and most important a God fearing Man that knows right from wrong and good from evil. How dare you attempt to make me into this scary gun toting monster thats off his rocker and insensitive to the reality of what took place because your Wrong.
To say something ridiculous such as the tongue-in-cheek “only death caused by those evil firearms should be protested” shows me and everyone else that you have no interest in a serious discussion of serious issues. Many causes of death, from war, to healthcare, to workplace safety, to driving standards have been and are argued regularly.
Furthermore, you have some real paranoia issues if you think that anyone is trying to make the people who own guns in a well-regulated system out to be monsters. We would have no driving laws if everyone who owned a car were simply a responsible and careful driver and knew how to avoid accidents, driving under the influence, and so on. But they aren’t, so we protect the general welfare (Article 1, Section 8, as I’m sure you are aware) by instituting the necessary regulations.
You can be upset, but your position is emotional. It has no logical basis and no precedent.
David #32
You are not misreading me.
I did not misrepresent what you said. I simply reformatted your comments. Go look for yourself!! I added two items to the list.
I find it hard to understand how:
-imperial mindset
inspired a 20-yr old autistic kid to massacre humans
do you really think he thought about imperialism?
-over-arching feelings of exceptionalism
inspired a 20-yr old autistic kid to massacre humans
do you really think he pondered american exceptionalisim as he was loading the guns?
-predatory capitalism
inspired a 20-yr old autistic kid to massacre humans
do you really think he was murmuring “capitalist pigs?”
-meager social safety net
OK, I am gonna vote ‘present’ on this one.
-incarceration and torture policies
inspired a 20-yr old autistic kid to massacre humans
Sure, records show the shooters passion for the imprisoned.
-lack of universal health care
inspired a 20-yr old autistic kid to massacre humans
Oh snap…you got it…this is the reason for sure.
-disconnect from the natural world
Bingo!
-consumerist obsessions
??????
-sycophantic media
Yup…sycophants indeed!
-fear-based politics
Prime mover, yes.
Lets wait to see what the investigation reveals. There is some indication that the shooter was goth…that may be the key?!? Lets just wait to see what is learned in the investigation before we blame this on capitalists.
“The word is that he was badly affected when his parents split and that might be what pushed him over the edge.”
Davey Crocket @ 37 and 38,
Ah, so I was right, you were giving me shit.
I don’t know what to say to your response here. It’s so fucking stupid I’m sorta at a loss for words. You seem to think you live in a world where all the various aspects of culture, all the various factors at play that affect the way we think, feel, perceive, believe, etc., DON’T effect people and/or that there are no cumulative effects and/or that the only way to measure any possible effect is if the person affected says it out loud as if they’re aware of the effect.
Sorry, that’s too fucking stupid. Stupid with attitude. You and I don’t share enough common ground on the nature of reality to have meaningful discussion. Hmmm….seems like I’ve said that before. I’m a little slow.
You also didn’t understand what I meant when I wrote you somewhat misrepresented what I said. But who gives a fuck. You do not argue in good faith. You seem incapable of accurately representing an opposing point of view. Fuck this.
The Emilie Amendment. Let Emilie’s death not be in vain, may her smile lead America into changing the 2nd Amendment to the Constitution to read:
“A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of responsible people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.”
This will allow Congress to pass legislation to prevent the deranged from owning guns and even the NRA will support it.
David #39
Calm down.
I do believe that everything in our culture/society has some bearing on who we are and how we act. I just do not believe that you can take any one act and derive a cause/effect relationship between that act and a litany of social ills.
However, to blame lack of universal healthcare (e.g.) on the massacre…even to attribute 1E-12 to the massacre is just simply nuts.
I will agree that the following items could be argued as having an impact.
-disconnect from the natural world
-sycophantic media
As I said before (in a different way), the secular culture in which we live has driven God out of the town square. That is part of the problem. The media spewed from Hollywood is also complicit.
DC @41,
Here, against my better judgement, lemme connect the dots for ya.
Poverty is an enormous source of stress(perhaps the most significant predictor?) Lack of universal health care can render even financially secure families vulnerable to financial catastrophe. And then there’re all the families and individuals who are not so financially secure. The looming spectre of health care costs that you may not be able to pay and the dire consequences likely to result can be a significant source of stress.
What about that do you not understand?
Why do you insist on facile reductions of complex and nuanced systems? My assertion is that there are multiple factors contributing to our dysfunction. Lack of universal health care is a part of the picture. You reduce the contributing factors I mentioned to–not enough God and don’t anybody dare blame capitalism.
Not hard to make the case that if you’re talking about the kind of religion embraced by the Christo-fascist movement in the U.S., we’ve currently got way too much God. If, on the other hand, you’re talking about Nuns on the Bus or Joan Chittister, I’m all for them.
Also not hard to make the case that our particular brand of capitalism is highly, highly dysfunctional. You don’t seem to see that.
Just to be clear–
Though I’ve been advocating for an holistic approach to our problems and now specifically to our gun violence problems, to be sure the vital first step here is confronting the NRA lobby, taking away the keys to the car, and getting some goddamn common-sense gun laws.
DC,
The part of your argument where you decry the notion of definitive cause and effect being attributed when searching for the specific MO of a single act is weird and facile.
What’s staring most of us in the face, though perhaps not you somehow, is that this type of calamity has NOT been a single heinous occurrence. It has been one of many in this country in just the last few years. Far more than in any other country. THAT is the context in which I was speaking of cause and effect.
Apparently, you did not understand that. It’s just that sort of lack of understanding that makes discussion with you almost impossible.
Time and time again you seem incapable of understanding what is actually said. And your version of what is actually being said time again distorts what was actually said almost beyond recognition. Then you proceed to argue strenuously and self-righteously against your own fancifully arrived at meaning, no matter how far it is from the meaning intended.
Unacceptable.
[Comment deleted as commercial spam — DD]
Davey Crocket @41 wrote:
What a load. The terrorist KKK, responsible for burning churches and lynchings, burns crosses “as a symbol of Christian fellowship.”
Anti-abortion violence is associated with “Christian terrorism.”
There have been a multitude of religious wars.
One does not have to believe in a deity in order to find gun violence morally repugnant. I do, and I’m an atheist.
Ultimately, despite my perfect willingness to argue all points (in favor of sane gun regulation and a whole blessed lot more support for the mentally ill) I am mostly just a grandmother dissolved in grief…
There are a lot of myths and misconceptions here — The Harvard School of Public Health has a comprehensive collection of studies on guns in America.
For example: “More guns = more homicide”
With all the emotionally-charged arguments brought by pro-gun advocates here and elsewhere, it’s important to be informed of what the facts and the data actually show. This is not about confiscating anyone’s guns — it’s about preventing the next preventable massacre. Get informed on the actual facts, and help work for a solution so that this doesn’t happen again.
Davey Crocket @ 41 said:
You might want to read this. I could show you much more like it. But, point is, I’ve heard a lot from Rightwingers such as yourself over the past few days about how guns have nothing to do with our epidemic of massive gun violence, it’s a “mental health” issue.
Okay. If that’s so (and it’s certainly a part of the problem), what do RWers such as yourself call for to solve the problem? If not universal health care, then what? What do we do about the mental health issues that lead to mass shootings like the one on Friday? Particularly for families who can’t afford 24/7 mental health care?
Open to your ideas, Davey.
And if you can avoid being condescending (“Calm down”), it’ll help this conversation along. Thanks in advance.
Little children were killed. The very most basic instinct of our species is to protect our young. This event makes no sense, even mentally ill don’t generally hurt children. There is no way to make sense and or explain this event. Mankind needs to look in the mirror. If we pass this one off as mental illness then we need to start looking at the mentally ill differently to say the least. Also using this event like Brad to somehow gain traction on your political and personal views on gun control seriously lacks any sort of intelligence.
Sorry, Steve, S. @ #50 — No. This is isn’t about some “political and personal views” on gun control, this is about preventing mass murder before it happens again (and again and again). If we have the means to prevent it, we have the moral responsibility to do so.
A simple examination of the actual data from around the world demonstrates conclusively that various types of gun control policies have been wildly successful at reducing or eliminating the number of mass shootings in those countries.
You may wish to believe that there is nothing we can do, that the frequent mass murder of children is the price we must for gun fetishists’ “freedom” to amass arsenals of weaponry designed to kill as many people as possible in a matter of seconds. But the facts show otherwise.
I believe the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness includes being able to go to school without being shot. And that trumps the “right” of individuals to own assault type weapons.
Desi,
Thanks for the link. My point was using this event for anything other then sadness and despair for our species is in itself part of our own troubled evolution. Politics, War, senseless death and now a new type of mental illness that apparently can reverse 2 million years of instinctual behavior is our history.
The excuse to protect ourselves with guns is an interesting one don’t you think? We have no predators other then our own kind…
Good luck with your convictions and be careful of what entity ends up with the rope.
Again, Steve S., I’m not interested in “using this event”. I’m interested in stopping (or at least reducing) preventable mass murders in the U.S.
When do you think is the optimum time to work on that?
Steve S said @ 53:
Best response to that comes from the top of Desi’s article today:
Desi,
I don’t have the answer for this. I wish I did. I think we need to push really hard at disgracing the individual, the act and the violent culture that is evolving before our eyes. I was actually surprised to find out my kids had a game where you could drag a little old lady out of her car and kill her, then drive away in her car leaving her dead… but I saw it with my own eyes. Even worse I had funded the purchase of the game. The screaming at the top of our lungs should have started the first time we picked up a bone and swung it at one of our own but it didn’t. Don’t just demand gun control, you are feeding into their arguments and they have good points even if we don’t agree. We need to make the perception of using force with a gun what it really is. Cowardly Package it with all the elements as a part of the problem but not the only problem. The other thing we need to work on is mass media. I am guessing the next evil coward is watching all the attention what his name is getting from using a combat rifle on helpless wonderful children. One thing I have noticed the past year is that my local bank of america has an armed guard at the door. So our money is protected by armed guards (acceptable?) but if we did that with our kids its offensive? So I am sorry to break everyone’s bubble but we are all responsible for what we have become, a violent nasty greedy species that now needs to guard our children with deadly force. This said people like Desi do give me hope that we have not passed the point of no return. Last thought… When I was a kid we watched the Any Griffith show and the Brady bunch. My kids watch Sons of anarchy and breaking bad. If you acted like an ass you were treated like and ass not given a special pill and told its OK its not your fault…
If the logic is “Its useless to regulate guns, criminals will still get their hands on them/break the law” then why have any laws at all? To the folks wishing pull this fantastically stupid argument out as well “well, car deaths occur, should we just go back to horse and buggy’s or ban cars?” Are you listening to yourself when you think that? How stupid. First, a car is created for transportation. A gun is created for KILLING. Second, The car has evolved constantly over the years getting safer with each iteration. We have updated our roads, traffic laws, testing, licensing, all in an effort to make travel safer. Might I add, that the overwhelming majority of traffic deaths, (99%) are ACCIDENTAL DEATHS. Know the percentage of gun deaths that were accidental? ONE PERCENT. Just because we would not be able to achieve zero gun deaths with greater reform, does not mean we do not need to address it. Break out of your binary Utopian world view, where if you cannot achieve perfection, then its not worth doing. Its an insult to the Sandy Hook victims.
If more law abiding responsible people had concealed carry permits and were able and willing to use their firearms when necessary, how many of you anti-gun nuts really believe he would have gotten off more than one or two shots in a school?
There are numerous incidents where something similar has been planned and thwarted due simply to the fact that there was one the previously mentioned citizens nearby. The problem is that mainstream media doesnt cover these events. Read some of the NRA armed citizen stories, then cross reference. You will find the truth. At no point have i ever heard of the NRA supporting or condoning acts of violence. And a correction to one of the ar-15 comments above, the m-16 model a-1 was the predecessor to the ar that was designed and used by the military. They now use the m-16 a-2 or the m-4 carbine. No branch uses an ar-15. But the marine corps and the us army snipers also use a bolt action rifle that fires one round per manual bolt rotation. Noone ever seems to look at every aspect of anything theyre for or against. Everyone enjoy this nonsense because ive read some of the most ignorant close minded comments before i posted this. Im sure alot of you feel the same way about what ive posted. But thats my right as well.
More guns to fix our too many guns problems fits the definition of insanity. There IS research on this(Desi’s cited it repeatedly). It’s not just a matter of pulling some ideological wish scenario out of a hat.
The more guns for law-abiding civilians advocates sound like they’re living in “High Noon.” Sounds good as a movie. But in real life, in this culture, more guns equal more death.
Ok would everyone please stop and consider a few things
1 the worst mass murder ever committed on US soil happend on Sept 11 th 2001 and what did they use to kill all of these people a airplane so are we going to ban aircraft??
2The guy that killed those people in the movie theater in CO used a gun and killed several people well think about this what if he would of used a propane bottle rigged to explode guess what most everyone in that theater would of died.
3 How may people are killed by cars every day hmmmm let’s ban them to!
4. The answer is common sense enforce the laws that we have and when someone breaks that law DO NOT SLAP THEM ON THE WRIST PUNISH THEM.
5 The people that think guns should be banned are the same ones that feel that prisoners should be comfortable in prison
6 Our Great nation is falling apart and unless people start paying attention and stop wondering what they are getting for free we are all in trouble
Wow, Mark Jenkins @ 60!
6 points and not a single one of which doesn’t fall apart with about 4 seconds scrutiny. Perhaps you should have “stop[ped] and consider[ed]” any of them before posting them here. Let’s take them one at a time:
No. But we did institute a lot of policies for their safe use thereafter, including who gets to use them, fly them, how they are secured both outside and inside, and who and how will their safe use will be monitored and secured. Perhaps you were in a coma at the time, but after 9/11, we instituted a host of new safety regulations to do that, just as we should for the use of guns.
Um, so you don’t suppose toting a 10 gallon propane tank into a movie would have caught anyone’s eye? Really? Did that coma after 9/11 also leave you blind? Or just dumb?
Very nice strawman! Actually, since so many people are killed by cars, we institute enormous regulations on them: how they are made, who gets to drive them, how drivers must pass proficiency tests for licensing before they are legally allowed to use them, safety regulations for their legal use (seat belts, road signs, speed limits), and consistently monitor them for illegal use. Did you really just make that argument? Did you even “stop and consider” anything before doing so?
How do you propose we should punish the shooter from Newtown, CT? Or from Aurora, CO? Or from Oak Creek, WI? Or from Columbine (Littleton), CO? — Starting to see any flaw in your “reasoning” here? Did you “stop and consider” any of these questions before posting them here? Or are you still in a coma, and typing here in an unconscious dream state?
That’s just Fox “News” tea baggery. Surely you know the difference between that an a serious argument, right? Given the previous grafs, maybe not.
More tea baggery. But you run along and get your gun now to keep you safe from our “Great nation…falling apart”! And thanks for playing!
JPack80 @ 58:
Easy question. First, how many shots did the Fort Hood shooter get off when he opened fire — killing 13 and wounding 29 others — in the middle of a U.S. Army base, filled with people carrying weapons and many more with easy access to them?
But the more damning answer to your foolish question is found in this ABC video showing how people with guns actually react when confronting by something like this: Videos PART 1 PART 2
Any other dumb questions for us, Packy?